Wishing Church and State Were MORE Separate

Great Debates
21

Perhaps you could post a cite or a link for that case, Jenkinsfan. If the complete facts are as you have outlined them I would share your outrage.

I see no connection between that and prayer in schools.

Individual students are, and have always been, free to pray any time they want provided said prayer does not disrupt other classroom activities. Surely you are not advocating the idea that prayer should be allowed, even encouraged, to disrupt the process of learning?

As to student led prayers, I ask you to define your terms. If a group of students decides to gather together in the cafeteria and say a prayer, I have no problem with thqat. If a group of students asks that normal school activities be suspended specifically so that they can say a prayer in the presence of others who have expressed no desire to pray, then yes I have a problem with it.

22

I’m sorry but I don’t have a link for it. Your next statement totally confuses me.

I thought skeptics were opposed to any religios activity on school property.

No, I don’t think it should disrupt education.

Actually, your first scenerio is my definition of school prayer led by students, which I thought you would be opposed to.

23

That depends on what kind of student-led prayer. Student led prayer over a loudspeaker, or at an assembly or other function set up by the school’s administration is not acceptable. ( And by the way, if by skeptic you mean atheist, I’m not one. I’m a Catholic who sends my children to parochial school where they pray all of the time, but the important points are they pray in a way that’s acceptable to our religion and it’s by our choice) If you mean student led prayer in a voluntary student group at lunchtime or an after school bible study group , etc that’s allowed ( except in the minds of some administrators)

24

Who’s Joe? Anyway, please note that the assertion is among western countries. I was going to write how the even MORE religious countries (Iran, Syria, etc.) are even less tolerant, more violent and less educated than the ‘heathen’ western nations but I was running short on time and decided to save that for another day.

As far as the assertion of 17 countries being chosen for the sample and claiming may not be representative of the western world you’ll have to take that up with the Gallup organization. I’m sure they have their reasons but I have no idea what they are and can concede their methodology may be screwed if someone can show me why.

As for the ‘3[sup]rd[/sup] out of 17’ problem you take issue with then (highlighting mine)…

*Source: http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/bishop_19_3.html *

I will say I had a helluva time finding even the two sites I listed in the OP for stats like these. They weren’t picked because I agreed with them but were picked because that was all I could find. If anyone can find better please do so.

25

Joe is Joe Lieberman

26

I see no connection between a bus driver wishing a child “merry Christmas” and prayer in schools. The bus driver was not praying, and he was not in school. Why is this confusing? Perhaps I should specify that I see no connection close enough to view these two things as in any sense equivalent. Certainly they both fall under the broad category “activities that involve words, some of which can have religious meanings”.

Nope. I am opposed to state sanctioning or sponsoring of a religious view.

Nope. But I was very careful in establishing the setting and circumstances for my example. I should, perhaps, also specify that I place a certain responsibility upon the cafeteria supervisors/monitors to ensure that the activity does not become coersive.

27

Question for you jenkinsfan. What would you think if there was a student at your childs school who had to start every lunch by screaming at the top of their lungs…
“OH GREAT LORD SATAN.
DAMN YOUR ENEMIES TO HELL
MAY YOU FEAST UPON THE ENTRAILS OF JESUS
MAY THE WORLD BE WASHED IN THE BLOOD OF GOD
MAY ALL CARRY YOUR MARK
TAKE ME WITH YOU”

Would you be offended at all? Would you have concerns about your child sitting next to them?

28

There was another thread around here recently discussing Atheism. I have to run right now so I’m not going to bother looking it up (and I apologize to those who posted in there for not leading others to that discussion).

It occurred to me while driving home you might be confusing two types of Atheists. The ‘soft’ type and the ‘hard’ type. The soft type says, “I personally don’t believe in God.” This may be what you are thinking of and find it hard to understand why someone who doesn’t personally believe in God should have issue with those who do (although it could be argued that they still can take issue…again I’m in a rush so I’ll leave it for others).

The hard type says, “I actively believe in the non-existence or total abscence of God.” The two may sound close but there is a fair difference between them. The hard type is more likely to go around prosyletizing on the non-existence of God. As much and as strongly as you believe there is a God they believe there is NO God.

Does that help?

29

I think that I can, you old Witness you. Am I right?

30

What is usually meant by “student-led prayer” (and I have a sneaking suspision that this is what jenkinsfan means by it, to) is something like this:

[8:30 AM. School bell rings in homeroom.]

Teacher: Good morning class.
All: Good Morning Ms. Wormwood!
Teacher: Before we begin classes, I think Fred has something to say. Fred?
Fred [followed by the rest of the class]: Our Father, Who Art in Heaven. . .
This is not to say that Fred is necessarily being prompted by Ms. Wormwood to pray; he may very well have come to her first. Still, the fact that school time is being set aside for worship is aggregiously wrong. The government is facilitating Fred’s witnessing by giving him a captive audience. Would the atheist then be aloud to give a 2 minute speech on the evils of organized religion and the inherent logic of atheism? I think not.

31

The last time I looked, the First Amendment was still in place, and so was the Fourteenth. By my reading, that means that every citizen of this country has a right to choose what to believe or not believe, without any legal compulsion one way or the other.

There is no age rule anywhere in those laws.

Let me make this 100% clear. I am absolutely opposed to any school administration, teacher, or whatever imposing his or her religion or lack thereof on students. I am absolutely opposed to any attempt to require those kids to believe or not believe anything in particular as regards religious faith. And I am dead opposed to any effort to keep those students who do have religious views from exercising them.

The typical school district, in my experience, seems to have taken its operating philosophy from 1984: “Anything not compulsory is forbidden.” “Oh, so we can’t impose a school prayer? That means we have to ban any students praying anywhere in the school – that’s an unconstitutional entry of religion into the public schools.”

Wrong! That is students exercising their constitutional rights. Now, granted that school districts can and do exercise some custodial rights over the school property placed in their hands, and can regulate what groups may meet, how, and when, there is absolutely no grounds in law for (1) requiring any person, of any age, to participate in any religious activity, (2) prohibiting any person, of any age, from engaging in any religious activity. (Knowing this board, I can see immediate posts suggesting that #2 above allows for fertility rites culminating in mass orgies, and so on. Give me a break and allow for common sense regulation of such things – everybody knows that the fertility rite/mass orgy activity is scheduled after the Homecoming game in real life!)

Catch my point? Mandated religious behavior is wrong for the exact same reason as prohibition of religious behavior is wrong…because this is a country which still cherishes its freedoms.

People have brought up teachers in previous posts. Any teacher who uses his/her authority over a class to require practice of his/her religion should be immediately dismissed for cause and his/her teaching credentials revoked. Any teacher who admits to a religious faith or lack of it in class is simply being honest about what he/she believes, and is not exercising undue influence. Granted that for smaller children, the teacher’s opinion carries much weight – this is a world in which those kids are going to encounter far worse things than someone telling whether or not he/she believes in God, a god, gods, nature spirits, or the Invisible Pink Unicorn. Or haven’t you turned on your TV lately? On the Fathom board, someone recently posted about a 6-year-old kid mimicking for his same-age friends the WWF Degeneration X squad’s invitation to perform oral sex on them. The kid is going to encounter differences in belief early on; that teacher is not going to be the absolute difference in whether he or she ends up with a particular belief or lack thereof.

32

Now this statement, I like.

I am a “quiet” (soft?) atheist. I am also strongly in favour of freedom of speech, and yes, that means letting kids pray in school or anywhere else if they want. In fact, we have a prayer to begin each meeting of my Kiwanis Club. Does that bother me? Not in the least.

Naturally, though, I would have a problem with my children (someday, maybe…?) being told that they must pray, or must participate; Polycarp, you seem to be against this as well, and that I can realize and admire.

When I was in college, I had an anthropology professor who I always suspected of being an atheist; it’s hard not to be when you make it your life’s work to figure out where mankind came from.

I really admired him as a lecturer because despite the fact that some of my fellow students would ask inappropriately Biblically-inspired questions during lecture, he never once let on one way or another his belief in a higher power.

He explained the facts he expected us to know, then gave us exams over them just like any other teacher.

Pete
Long time RGMWer and ardent AOLer

33

I’ve never heard anyone pray at the top of their lungs and if anyone did, regardless of whom they’re praying to, they should be quieted so others won’t be disturbed. As for your question of would I be offended–No. This is one Christian that believes in freedom of religion. I don’t agree with other religions but I tolerate them just as they do mine. That’s what makes us a free country.

34

I’ve never pictured it exactly that way. I see school prayer as a group of students gathering around a flag pole with a senior leading them in prayer. I can see your concern about the unspoken teacher endorsement if a Jew or someone from another religion felt out of place.

BTW, Wildest Bill, I know who you are.

35

Maybe, but do you believe in freedom FROM religion?

Yer pal,
Satan

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36

Yes. Well, perhaps. <Clinton voice>Then again, please define “FROM”. </Clinton voice>

37

How about someone who has no religion at all?

Furthermore, even if every single student in the class is a member of the same religion, they are still learning a false lesson about the separation of church and state. And if they do this for a month until a Muslim kid moves to town and they have to stop, how do you think they will feel about and behave towards the new kid? There are a lot of reasons for not letting this start in the first place, even if everyone wants to participate.

38

Well you are consistent jenkinsfan. I’ll give you that. As for me I’d be just as offended and worried for my childs safety as I would if someone started talking about Jesus.

39

Jenkies, I’ll give you a good example. The senior moderator of this board is an atheist of Jewish descent, and is raising his children free from our “superstition.” Should the kids be expected to participate in Christmas-oriented activities in school this December? Why or why not? Is Christmas a secular holiday too? Why or why not?

It gets tough to make these kinds of calls. Personally, in David’s shoes, I’d tell the kids about the Christmas story in exactly the same way any bedtime story is told, and wait until they’re older for them to choose, with parental guidance, whether it’s factual as JFK’s inaugural speech, fictional as the Three Bears, or moralistic as George and the Cherry Tree Incident. When they ask questions is the time to provide the answers.

But the same protection that covers a Christian kid in a mostly secular environment should protect an atheist kid in a mostly-Christian environment.

40

Well, remember the lonely little Jew in our example of the above classroom? Replace him with an athiest who has no interest in praying to a God he doesn’t believe exists.

Now imagine the teacher selecting (or leading herself) a ‘non-denominational’ prayer to ‘the Creator’. While such pablum might seem non-offensive to any religious members of the student body, to the athiest student it’s just as offensive and contra-belief as the Christian prayer is to the Jewish student.

Again, it isn’t the matter of “atheists wish to stamp out all possible references to religion” as much as it is “atheists feel they have the right to go through life without being forced by their government to accept that there is a God”.