with respect to rap music...

I’m a huge music fan but not the biggest hip hop fan. I have several rap albums including Eminem’s first and third albums.

my issue is, am I a complete ignoramous or is Eminen worlds better than everyone out there?

Even the most talented competitors (Jay Z, Ja Rule, Naz) just rap about bitches and cars and money blah blah blah. I know Em is offensive, but his lyrics are incredible (eg White America).

My question to hip hop experts is, is he as good as I think he is or are they others that just don’t get his press?

A little from colum A and a little from column B. Eminem is very talented, but he’s not the best out there by far.

I’m getting the impression that you’re new to hip hop, so if I go over some obvious stuff, just ignore me. But here’s my basic guide to good hip hop, which I fully admit contains some omissions due to personal taste and the fact that no-one can completely know any genre.

First, get aquainted with some old stuff. Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five’s *The Message is pretty much the greatest hiphop track from the very old school, and it still stands up today. From there, get aquainted with Run-DMC’s work, particularly the album Raising Hell. Their contemporaries, the Beastie Boys are significant in terms of Eminem, because they’re early period shares a lot of features of his career. They’re both talented and respected white rappers in a predominantly black genre, and they both caused a huge amount of controversy due to their lyrics and actions. All of the Beastie’s albums are great, but check out Licensed to Ill and Paul’s Boutique in particular.

The late 80’s Native Tongues collective produced some of hip-hops most important music, and revolutionised the technique of sampling. De La Soul’s 3 Feet High and Rising is probably the classic album, but also check out works by Jungle Brothers and A Tribe Called Quest.

I must also mention the amazing Public Enemy, who were the first political rap group. Listen to the album It Takes A Nation of Millions To Hold Us Back.

I must mention NWA, Ice Cube, Dr Dre and Snoop here, because despite my unfamiliarity with their music, they’re seen as very important contributers to the genre, and I can’t leave them out.

Having covered the past, I’ll move on to the present:

You are right, most of the artists as good or better than Eminem don’t get his press, but there are some quite good mainstream rappers. Outkast do some great stuff, both vocally and musically, and as far as hip-pop is concerned, you don’t get better than Missy Elliott.

More underground MCs: Definitely try the old school stylings of Jurassic Five, and other similar west coast artists Blackalicious and the Black Eyed Peas. Also take a listen to British rapper The Streets - he’s quite unlike anything you’ve ever heard in hip-hop before. His beats veer more towards jungle and garage, and his accent may be off putting at first, but he is such a talented MC and songwriter that should you give him a chance, his music will undoubtedly grow on you. For something a little more experimental, listen to DJ Shadow. His music is almost completely instrumental and is entirely sample driven, and at times sounds nothing like hip hop at all. But his skill as a DJ and his amazing ability to twist samples into entirely new forms makes him a very worthy edition to the list.

Finally, The Roots are apparently doing some really good stuff, and their new album Phrenology is getting rave reviews. Also, the Wu Tang Clan apparently have made some of the best hip hop in the genres history.

Go forth, listen to it all. It mightn’t all be to your taste, but there is a world outside Eminem, and you’ll listen to some great music discovering it.

Wait… did she just refer to Eminem as hip hop? Not exactly. While some of his rhymes may be charming and clever, he lacks decent content. Nobody cares about how much he hates gays or his mom (or at least I don’t). Eminem isn’t art, he’s a cleverly marketed tool. As are Jay Z, Ja Rule, etc etc. In case you couldn’t tell, I passionately hate those guys and the obscene amount of airplay they get on MTV. That damn network is single-handedly responsible for the defamation of hip hop music. But I digress…

I recommend some Talib Kweli. The man is no less than a God. Also Common, The Roots, J5, Nas to a certain extent, Mos Def, etc. 99% of the “hip hop” you see/hear on TV/radio was invented for kids in the burbs so they could listen to it and feel “down.” Newsflash, Ja Rule isn’t hip hop. He’s the biggest tool alive… or at least top five. Get Kweli. I love that guy.

I don’t know if he’s as good as you think he is, but he’s different. I don’t like rap or hip-hop as a general rule (although hip-hop by some female artists is definitely better than most pop) but I do like Eminiem and Outkast, at least as far as their singles go. My brother may or may not be a typical rap/hip-hop listener, but he finds it odd that I put so much weight on the lyrics over “the beats.” In Eminiem’s case, even if the lyrics are somewhat offensive, at least he puts a new spin on it.

No one’s mentioned Nelly? Yeah, he likes his bitches (although I can’t think where he actually calls them that) and he likes to party-- but if you want to do some serious booty-shakin’ Nelly’s the guy to listen to.
And I love Outkast.

Aggghh! Eminem does not put a new spin on anything! He’s not original, fresh, cutting edge or insightful! All he does is flap! And Nelly? Nelly?! Gah, he’s cheesy pop just like Justin whatshisface. Sure, he’s got some catchy beats and stuff, but his lyrics suck. WHATEVER HAPPENED TO LYRICAL CONTENT, PEOPLE?! JESUS H. CHRIST, LYRICS!!!

Sorry, I got carried away. But I’m sick and tired of hearing the same crappy lyrics rattled over cheesy, but catchy bubble gum beats. Outkast is fine, but Em? Negative. And Nelly? Double negative. My recommendations stand, particularly Talib Kweli. And once more for the road, I… love… that… guy.

I dunno Meanie, but I think if you want lyrical content, rap music is not the place to be looking. Sure you can find deep, meaningful words in rap, but this genre is all about the rhythm.

Beats, bass and flow are more important than message.

That’s not true. Stop basing your opinions of the genre MTV (a station with a strict filth only policy) and get the latest Roots CD… or, of course, Kweli. :wink:

Err, stop basing your opinions on MTV. I really ought to preview my posts before submitting them.

It’s not like most rap beats are any good, either. They are just loops which a child could make on a program like Fruity Loops. A real musician would tell you there’s not much depth in that stuff.

That is true. My opinions are not based on MTV. My opinions are based on my very own tastes. The fact that rap is rhythm based is based on, well, facts.
Kurtis Blow:

B-Boy’s Hip Hop timeline

Urban Folklore:

Lyrical content takes a back seat to the rhythm. Not to say that some very powerful lyrics cannot be found in rap, but in rap-- rhythm rules.

dre and big boi from outkast are as close to geniuses as anyone in popular music today. sure, you’ve all heard the singles and whatnot, but buy the albums. it’s almost like watching a good simpsons episode. you’ll notice something different every time you listen. and trust me, i was an underground hiphop snob for a long time (i listen to anticon, fer chrissakes!), and tried to hate just about everything that got airplay, but i couldn’t resist outkast despite that. these guys are that good.

also check out timbaland for beats. his emcees are his curse, though. he seems to work with some of the weakest lyricists out there. but he can make magoo and missy elliot sound good, so that is a huge testament to his talent. and missy isn’t that bad, at least she’s somewhat original.

and don’t front on a good loop. if a producer can piece a beat together from two measures that makes my uncoordinated white ass want to get up and dance, i respect that. and a lot of people hear something recognizable and then denounce all that is hiphop music. sure, it’s sampled, we’ve settled that. but if you listen a little deeper you’ll usually notice layers of sound underneath that loop. it’s a musical collage, not plaigerism. at leats with the quality acts like the aformentioned guys, and a whole lot of others that don’t get as much shine, it is.

check out de la soul, especially “stakes is high” and their prior albums. anything by tribe called quest before “beats, rhymes, and life” is nice. pete rock is a great producer, although he raps a bit much for my taste. blackalicious is pretty good. epmd was my favorite group in the day. erick sermon was a true production innovator. del tha funky homosapien is a painfully unknown emcee from oakland. you should pick up his “no need for alarm” record. still gets regular rotation from me.

Music evolves. Does rock and roll today sound anything like it did when it first began? Do the once heavily jazzed influenced sounds of r&b sound like they used to? And what’s this business about all rao beats being cheesy loops? The Roots are a hip hop band. Yes, band. They play instruments. No cheesy loops there. Or even Hi Tek. That guy makes some of the most awesome beats around. If by hip hop, we mean the the guys we see being rammed down our throats on MTV and BET all day, then yes, it’s crappy. If by hip hop we mean the actual music that doesn’t get the airplay and recognition it should, then I’m not so sure we can all it all bad. There’s some pretty good stuff out there that you’ve never even heard of b/c you’re too busy watching TRL.

I have to wonder who in the hell you’re lashing out at Meanoldlady. TRL, MTV, Nelly, people who don’t like rap, people who like rap artists that you don’t, people who don’t like the artists that you do? Really, everybody doesn’t have to agree with you and, quite honestly, I’d rather have my tastes formed by my own likes and dislikes then by some Grand Internet Poster Arbiter of What is and is not Good in Rap Today. In fact I’d rather have my tastes formed by MTV and TRL than some anonymous rap music snob. But that’s just me.
It’s pretty presumptuous of you to assume you know anyone’s TV watching habits from reading a thread about rap music. I cannot speak for anyone else in this thread (because I, unlike you, have no idea what the other people in this thread do in their lives and do not pretend I do) but I don’t watch MTV. Not even to watch The Osbournes. Too much screaming, jump-cut, fasty-fluff-fluff for me.

But that’s my taste and I would never look down my nose at those whose tastes include screaming jump-cut fluffiness.

MeanOldLady you’re right; the cheesy loops I’m thinking of I know from MTV; and all music on MTV sucks, regardless of genre. So I’ll take that back. I’ve heard rap music which I respect, and I’m sure the Roots would be one of these bands if I’ve heard them.

FWIW, Eminem is one of the few rappers I like, but I couldn’t figure out why until recently. I just read [rul=http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/22/arts/music/22SANN.html?8hpib]this article in the NY Times, which describes his music as follows:

This is hip-hop at its most single-minded: the beats are strictly functional, designed to show off the complicated rhyme patterns and shifting rhythms that make Eminem’s raps so impressive.

That nailed my unformulated sentiments exactly. The focus on the rhymes and rhythms rather than the beats, which I’ve never cared for much in mainstream rap, is what draws me. Just my 2 cents.

I’m not “lashing out” at anyone. I’m simply stating that I don’t particularly care for Nelly’s music or that of others like him (Jay Z, Big Tymerz, whoever else, I forget names) b/c they’re all a bunch of talentless hacks. What’s worse is they flood the airwaves on MTV and most popular radio stations. Like I said before, MTV has a strict crap-only policy. I can’t recall the last time I saw anything worth watching on there.

Anyway, you need to simmer down, Biggirl. I don’t care what your taste in music is. If you like tasteless and uncreative lyrics tossed over a cheesy beat, knock yourself out. I, on the other hand, am a fan of lyrics and rhythm. No, Nelly’s “Hot in Herre” does not constitute either of the aforementioned. At any rate, despite your preference in “music” (which, again, I couldn’t care less about), it’s silly to say that there is no hip hop music with great content. Just because you prefer not to listen to it, mainly b/c you’ve never even heard of it, does NOT mean it doesn’t exist. I’ve already listed a few hip hop artists who consistently produce great lyrics and sounds, but if Nelly floats your boat, keep floatin’.

By the way, have we forgotten about battling? You do know what battling is, don’t you? That’s when two emcees (“rappers” as you would call them) freestyle over a beat. Any beat, it doesn’t matter, just throws something to give the emcees a rhythm to flow to. The winner is, of course, the person with the best lyrics. Hmm? What was that? Lyrics are what determine the champion? Not the beat? Quite interesting…

:wink:

Ah, you pretentious rap types always get in a twist over this topic. It’s not always about raising the collective consciousness–sometimes it’s just about shaking your a$$. Talib Kweli has his place, but so does Nelly. Lighten up.

You seem to be “lashing out” on those who like what you have deemed “talentless hacks.” Making accusations of mindless acceptance to those who do not share your musical tastes. Not only that, making assumptions on what those tastes actually are.

There are those who like Nelly and there are those who like JayZ and there are those who like Outkast and even those who like your little darling Kweli. Since I have a mind of my own I can come to my own conclusions as to who is talentless and who isn’t. Just as you do.

Now, I can say that your need to find deep lyrical meaning in rap and is a sign of that terrible “cooler than thou” affliction, but I won’t. I will say that the superior attitude you show to those who like popular rap acts is a sign of this particular affliction.

I think you need to read what I wrote Meanie. Now where did I say that there is no great content in rap music. In fact I said:

That high horse of yours wiill give you a nosebleed if you don’t step down off of it sometimes.

What gave you the idea that I never heard of these groups and don’t like them? As I suggested earlier read what I wrote instead of jumping to conclusions.

Why yes, I have heard of battling. Battling is all about rhythm and flow. The themes battled over are the same ones and the rapper (or MC, as you call them) who expresses the same idea as has been expressed a thousand times over, but with the best flow and style wins.

Well excuse me if I’m not a fan of the lyrics to “Hot in Herre.” Perhaps there too deep for me. I can only stand so much brilliance. I prefer the (non-shallow) musical sylings of God – err – I mean Talib Kweli. Songs about broads, cars and “ice” don’t interest me. Clearly, I have no taste in music. Fuck me in the Ozarks… please.

And stop with this lyrics take the backseat nonsense. Maybe with Nelly, sure. Not with anyone I listen to.

Oh yes, and battling = rhythm and flow? Battling is all lyrics, sweetie. Two emcees battle over the same damn music! Naturally, if someone is off beat, that isn’t exactly helpful… but assuming the emcees have basic rhythm, lyrics crown the champion.