For some people, this point is valid (though I would replace “flaws” with “perceived flaws”).
But for many others, you might be expecting too much of them. I think most people just don’t bother to think about these things. I disagree with a lot of what you’ve written, but it is obvious that you’ve put a lot of time and effort into thinking about it. I think most other people don’t. They would just rather do whatever it is that they do, and not bother with deep philosophy. IOW, they choose neither theism nor atheism, and they just default to me-ism.
I haven’t seen many sophisticated atheist arguments that say this. We understand that God is not physical. What we are looking for is not to measure god, but to measure the impact of God on the physical world.
We can’t hold a neutrino, but we can measure its impact, with great difficulty.
The Bible, if viewed as a reasonably accurate story of history, makes many predictions about what we should find in history or science.
The problem with the contention of God creating the universe 6,000 years ago is not lack of pictures of a bearded man doing so, it’s the evidence that the universe was not created 6,000 years ago.
The contentions of more liberal religion are not so blatant, but the problem is the same. I grew up learning about the Davidic Empire in Hebrew School as history. I grew up learning that Moses wrote the Torah. I became an atheist when I found this wasn’t true. (Not justification, it’s the thing that pushed me over the edge.)
Religion is omnipresent in America. (I’ll leave other countries out for the moment, although this certainly applies in places all over the world.) Atheists are constantly surrounded by it. They know everything about religion, in exactly the same way that gays know everything about straights, women know everything about men, and people of color know everything about whites. They does not imply that every straight is homophobic, every man sexist, or every white person racist, but that the totality of the system is evident in a thousand small ways every moment of every day. Believers can’t understand this until they’ve lived it and even believers of good will deny that the system is as oppressive as it obviously is.
Throwing off the yoke of religion is something I never thought I would live to see, and to be sure it hasn’t happened yet. All I can hope for is that the trend will continue.
But please, never for a moment think that outsiders don’t understand religion or think about it or have complaints that aren’t valid. Outsiders know who can’t see past their noses, and it isn’t them.
If philosophy (of the non-theological variety) had been made mandatory and belief in this or that school thereof spoonfed like pablum to everyone growing up, this would not have been a good thing for philosophical thought.
I didn’t fully understand your earlier post, but I appreciate your making it. Obviously I’ve been with large numbers of believers who were in and of themselves good people in my lifetime. And I get internally upset with people looking at me being old and white and male and making assumptions.
However, religion is, unlike those, a choice individuals make and societies make and countries make. For most in America, criticizing religion is like criticizing the good ol’ U. S. of A. They truly equate the two. If they see flaws they hold them at arm’s length as exceptions and then forget them immediately.
Figuring out why people are turning away from organized religion is one of the most important and least explored questions in society. This thread is merely an indication of how hard it will be going forward.
About the environment, sure, but many atheists were believers while none or almost none of your categories were their opposites.
There’s a big range in the kind of believer we were, true.
Well, all other things being equal, I’ve found knowing that a person is an atheist is more likely to mean that they are a thoughtful person who doesn’t just choose from a pre-packaged set of beliefs but makes more of an attempt to find answers in life that actually work for them, and also that they’re more likely to be compassionate, socially aware, socially responsible, and idealistic in a way that resonates with me.
We theistic people aren’t a good lot But I tend to blame institutionalized religion for most of that. Those of you who have been on this board for awhile have had the privilege of knowing some pretty damn nice theistic people. And even among the not overwhelmingly nice, some thoughtful and provocative freethinking folks who were engaging to deal with. We’re not all bad.
And we aren’t stupid. You should take some time to understand our theistic perspective. Not because we think it’s contagious and we’ll successfully infect you and all that. Honestly, I promise you, I don’t give a damn whether you ever embrace the word “god” or subscribe to any tenet identified as “religious”. I don’t get any Brownie points for converting you, any more than gay guys get toasters. It’s not that kind of thing.
I’ve seen an awful lot of posts by people (including but not limited to atheists) who think they know everything about religion because of their familiarity with one particular flavor of Christianity.
This example does not compare to the point made earlier that India having special status for Muslim Sharia. For Jews : Israel has Halacha - For Hindus - India has secular laws based on modern societal norms. Same secular laws are applicable for Christians, Buddhists, Sikhs, Parsees, …
Its only one religious group having separate laws.
I would consider a comparable example where a NON Muslim majority country has secular laws for its christian, jewish, … BUT religious laws for Muslims.
Religion because we love, and our loved ones die and we need the hope to see them again to carry on. And by we, I mean some (most?) of us.
A follow up question is: If humans were immortal (the Dr. Manhattan sort of immortal, immune to accidents or destruction), would we still have religion?
So, your own personal religious views are so obviously true that everyone is born agreeing with you (despite the fact that their brains aren’t developed enough to begin to comprehend abstract concepts)? Who says atheists can’t be as arrogant and pigheaded as theists?
I was an atheist for many years, and I never felt that religion was omnipresent or oppressing me in any way. Sure, the Moral Majority was off in Washington trying to take my rights away, but in my everyday life, religious people weren’t harassing me or forcing me to do or not do anything. Sure, if I’d grown up in rural Utah or Alabama, I might have had different experiences, but most Americans don’t grow up in such places.
To the OP: I think it’s most true to say that, to the extent that people are leaving organized religion, it’s likely because doing so is more socially acceptable than it used to be. People no longer feel the need to go through the motions of pretending to believe things they don’t really believe, and that’s good.
I don’t think it’s largely due to people noticing that religious people disagree with each other a lot, because that’s been pretty obvious for as long as religion has existed.
Do you think there are newborn babies who believe that humanity is redeemed through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, or that Mohammed was the greatest of all God’s prophets?
But I tend to blame institutionalized religion for most of that. Those of you who have been on this board for awhile have had the privilege of knowing some pretty damn nice theistic people. And even among the not overwhelmingly nice, some thoughtful and provocative freethinking folks who were engaging to deal with. We’re not all bad.