Witnessing: Mankind IS going to Mars

[QUOTE=xtisme]
You can keep your gloom and doom…I’ll take a positive vision of the future (peak oil? gods…)
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Peak Oil is a fact - unlike your constant refrain of “WILL GO!”. We could dicker over the consequences of PO, but not the fact of its occurrence (unless you subscribe to non-biotic oil theories, of course)

[QUOTE=xtisme]

I don’t think it’s a matter of ‘if’ we are going to Mars…short of a global catastrophe I think we (the US, Russia, China, Japan, Europe, or some combination of those) ARE going to Mars…this century. I think the critical mass for such a venture is nearly the point of no return…someone is going there. At this point, I don’t really care if it’s Chinese astronauts that first set foot on Mars…I’ll be cheering my head off and learning all about them. Humans ARE going to Mars, and the only question I have is…will I still be wandering about the world when they get there.

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Don’t get me wrong, I would rejoice in any Mars landings just like I rejoiced in the Rover’s first pics. I just don’t think it’ll happen in this century - because of that “global catastrophe”. Or that it would be as world-shattering as you believe, even if it did.

[QUOTE=xtisme]

Complete gloom and doom horseshit. Digital media has penetrated into parts of the world that couldn’t have even dreamed about it during Apollo…and look how much world wide support that got.
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Dude, South Africa (the most technically advanced African country by far) didn’t even have TV when Armstrong stepped down. Believe me, it was no big deal here.

But I’m not saying people won’t have the ability to see the landing. I’m saying they won’t care.

[QUOTE=xtisme]

Third world countries and Asian sweatshops aren’t new…they weren’t invented this decade. You think they are worse than during the time of Apollo or Sputnik?? Really?

[/QUOTE]

Since the absolute numbers of people in those places is definitely much more now, yes, they are worse.

[QUOTE=xtisme]

I seriously think that some of you have a skewed view point of what people in third world countries are capable of caring about…and understanding I’ve been to places that barely had running water…yet they had electricity and internet connectivity.
[/QUOTE]

And posters of Tupac on the walls, I know, I know. Doesn’t mean they give two pesos about Mars missions, en masse.

[QUOTE=xtisme]

And you would be surprised as to what those poor ‘Middle Ages’ peasants ACTUALLY care about, and know.
[/QUOTE]

No, I wouldn’t. I know enough.

[QUOTE=xtisme]

I’m sure you didn’t mean it this way (IIRC you are from Africa somewhere, not the US/Europe), but to me what you are saying here is back handed cultural arrogance.
[/QUOTE]

No, it isn’t - it’s observation and experience.

[QUOTE=xtisme]

Like saying that my family who still live in Mexico and scratch out a living there couldn’t hope to understand such a mission enough to care about it, couldn’t set aside their brutish existence to think of something beyond pulling weeds in the field or working in that sweat shop.

[/QUOTE]

If that’s what they are currently doing, then no, I doubt very much they would watch a Mars landing live on Three-Vee. In my experience, people like that are much more likely to want to see the next football World Cup than a Mars landing. Even in America and Europe, sport and reality T.V. get more public attention than the BBC science shows. People in the rest of the world? No different.

They don’t have the knowledgebase to realise what makes such an event important to people like you or I. Sure, there’ll be one kid in the village who dreams of stars (I know, I was that kid in my home ghetto), but mass impact? I doubt it.

[QUOTE=xtisme]

Bullshit.

[/QUOTE]

Take it to the Pit. Not buying into your Arean daydream is no reason to get abusive.

[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
The Lunar landing seemed at the time to have a huge effect on all the peoples of the world. In hindsight, not so much.
[/QUOTE]
Gotta disagree with you here. Sure in terms of short term objective goals, we might not have gained much, but I agree with xtisme & his “Our first steps into the greater solar system” comment. The more we poke around in the universe, the emptier it seems. There is a very real chance that our planet has the only life in the reachable vicinity. The spreading of life beyond our planet has (IMO) enormous consequences in the long term thinking of the scope of life in the universe. The idea that the process might begin in our lifetime has to be intriguing even to the biggest cynic out there.

[QUOTE=ralph124c]
By the way, what plan did NASA have, if the Apollo astronauts were starnded on the moon? Suppose the LEM didn’t fire up for the return trip-were the guys on the moon expected tocommit suicide?
[/QUOTE]

If I remember *The Right Stuff *accurately, Mercury and Gemini astronauts were issued suicide pills, I can see the same for Apollo too.

[QUOTE=ralph124c]
And Dr. Zubrin aside, I can’t see sending an automatic rocket fuel plant to Mars-what if the thing doesn’t work?
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Plan for that possibility. Don’t launch the expedition until the automatic plant has already landed, proved functional, and made enough fuel for the return trip. (A meteor might land and smash it when the expedition is almost to Mars, of course – you can’t plan for everything.)

[QUOTE=MrDibble]
Peak Oil is a fact - unlike your constant refrain of “WILL GO!”. We could dicker over the consequences of PO, but not the fact of its occurrence (unless you subscribe to non-biotic oil theories, of course)
[/QUOTE]

Well, the debate is over the gloom and doom consequences of Peak Oil™. Certainly oil production will peak, if it hasn’t already. But THIS isn’t a debate about Peak Oil (fortunately).

[QUOTE=MrDibble]
Don’t get me wrong, I would rejoice in any Mars landings just like I rejoiced in the Rover’s first pics. I just don’t think it’ll happen in this century - because of that “global catastrophe”. Or that it would be as world-shattering as you believe, even if it did.
[/QUOTE]

Suit yourself. I think it WILL be earth shattering, and I’m militantly bored with the whole ‘global catastrophe’ meme at this point. So…we each have something to focus on it seems.

[QUOTE=MrDibble]
Dude, South Africa (the most technically advanced African country by far) didn’t even have TV when Armstrong stepped down. Believe me, it was no big deal here.
[/QUOTE]

Dude, I’ve BEEN to Africa (though, admittedly, not South Africa). And I’ve talked to people who remember Apollo there. Were they representative of the population as a whole? Probably not considering the circumstances that brought me there. Was it a ‘big deal’ there? Well, it didn’t go completely without notice, I know that. I suppose it depends on who you talk to…and your definition of what a ‘big deal’ is/was.

I’m not saying that everyone is going to jump for joy over a Mars mission (obviously you are not going to)…but I think it will be far from the indifference you seem to think it will be. I suppose time will tell as I’m sure it’s going to happen this century and probably in my lifetime.

Based on the amount of shows on things like Discovery/TLC/History, at least here in America SOMEONE cares about this stuff…or the stations wouldn’t bother with that kind of programming as there would be no market. At an outside guess, someone in Russia and China (as well as Japan and the EU) ALSO care, or they wouldn’t be spending money on looking into going there.

This doesn’t prove that people en masse will care about a Mars mission, especially outside of which ever nation actually attempts it first/pulls it off. Whether anyone cares or not, I think it’s going to happen, so the point is really moot. We can just disagree as to the impact it will have world wide and see what happens.

[QUOTE=MrDibble]
But I’m not saying people won’t have the ability to see the landing. I’m saying they won’t care.
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You are, of course, welcome to your opinion. I disagree.

[QUOTE=MrDibble]
Since the absolute numbers of people in those places is definitely much more now, yes, they are worse.
[/QUOTE]

:dubious: But this isn’t a debate about poverty or relative life styles of dirt farmers/peasants vs sweat shop workers, so let’s not get into that, ehe?

[QUOTE=MrDibble]
And posters of Tupac on the walls, I know, I know. Doesn’t mean they give two pesos about Mars missions, en masse.
[/QUOTE]

On the other hand, it’s not proof that they won’t care either, ehe?

[QUOTE=MrDibble]
No, I wouldn’t. I know enough.
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Well, there you are.

[QUOTE=MrDibble]
No, it isn’t - it’s observation and experience.
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Interesting…I’m using the same thing to make my own assessments.

[QUOTE=MrDibble]
If that’s what they are currently doing, then no, I doubt very much they would watch a Mars landing live on Three-Vee. In my experience, people like that are much more likely to want to see the next football World Cup than a Mars landing. Even in America and Europe, sport and reality T.V. get more public attention than the BBC science shows. People in the rest of the world? No different.
[/QUOTE]

Do you know what a trip to Mars will entail??? The risks that any nation that attempts it will be incurring (let alone the crews)? The months the crew will be taking those risks…and the dangers along the way? The personal interactions and crisis situations they will be going through? Isolation…solar storms…emergency situations…the landing. Exploration of a new world that humans have never been to? Discovery of life? You don’t think this will BE a reality TV drama??? Really? Wow…

I seriously think you are underestimating people if you think this is going to be a yawn and switch to Dancing with the Stars moment.

[QUOTE=MrDibble]
Take it to the Pit. Not buying into your Arean daydream is no reason to get abusive.
[/QUOTE]

:rolleyes: You think saying ‘bullshit’ is Pit worthy?? Seriously?

-XT

[QUOTE=xtisme]

Do you know what a trip to Mars will entail??? The risks that any nation that attempts it will be incurring (let alone the crews)? The months the crew will be taking those risks…and the dangers along the way? The personal interactions and crisis situations they will be going through? Isolation…solar storms…emergency situations…the landing. Exploration of a new world that humans have never been to? Discovery of life? You don’t think this will BE a reality TV drama??? Really? Wow…
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, currently Discovery is the non-stop ISS channel…oh, wait, no it isn’t. It’s the non-stop ghosts-and-UFOs channel, more like. Never mind the [del]History[/del]Hitler channel.

Right now, there are people more-or-less permanently in space. Is their (also risky, somewhat like a Mars mission) daily life the subject of worldwide interest and reality TV? No, it is not. I’m extrapolating from how yawnsome &/or incomprehensible the world (as a whole) currently finds the existing space program, to how they will behave towards a Mars mission that, sad to say, would generally be a lot like the ISS one. Long days of routine with moments of excitement.

Sure, you’ll get an audience possibly in the hundreds of millions for the actual landing, but I think it’ll fall short of the “galvanise the whole world” event you seem to think it’ll be. And yes, I do think you’re biased in who you’ve interacted with in Africa.

[QUOTE=xtisme]

I seriously think you are underestimating people if you think this is going to be a yawn and switch to Dancing with the Stars moment.

[/QUOTE]

“Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public.” H.L.Mencken.

I think that holds worldwide.

[QUOTE=xtisme]

:rolleyes: You think saying ‘bullshit’ is Pit worthy?? Seriously?

[/QUOTE]

Nope, but I can see this escalating if all your counterarguments end in terms of abuse.