WHAT. :rolleyes:
Give me a break. This is bullshit. The USA wants other countries to provide cash and troops but wants itself to remain in charge and to do this it is holding the Iraqi people hostage which is exactly what Saddam Hussein was doing. If the USA cares so much about the Iraqis then let the UN take over which it is more than willing to do. But this game of demanding money and troops in exchange for nothing is the acme of hypocrisy. The USA created the mess and it is the responsibility of the US to clean it up. And if France and Germany feel like helping people around the world, then there are plenty of other places where people are in greater need of help so I can’t see why they have any responsibility to help out in Irak. This is 100% the responsibility of the USA.
Misunderstanding - “hear hear” means “I agree with you”.
“Revenge” would be the UN refusing to help the US.
sailor
I totaly agree, the US has to pick up the pieces. And trying to get the UN in under US supreme comand is completely unacceptable for the rest of the world. My statement was that it is moraly a problem to let Iraq suffer for this. The US has to accept the UN. Period. But we can’t just sit here, smile and be happy that they got what they deserve. If the US stays on it’s own, how do you think this will ever be solved?
totaly off topic
This is interesting, I would have understood this under any circumstances as ironic. The danger with literal translations, I guess.
I recall a Seinfeld episode where Jerry has to take a lie-detector test about whether he wathed “Beverly Hills 90210” and he asked George about his lying technique. George’s answer"
“Remember, Jerry, it isn’t a lie if you believe it.”
I think that Wolfowitz, et al. actually DO believe the bilge that they spew. They’ve convinced themselves of the rightness of their actions and, therefore, it all makes perfect sense to them.
That it makes absolutely no sense to a great many people (people who will be paying for their (Wolfowitz, et al.'s) actions, mistakes, and delusions for years to come) is a totally foreigh concept to them.
We (the members of the SDMB) hashed all of this stuff out to the nth degree prior to the invasion of Iraq, but you’d think the Pentagon staff and the DOD had just now, just this very second, realized that something was going to have to be done once the bombing stopped. Christ, you don’t need an advanced degree from the Acme School of International Diplomacy to see where the whole mess was going to end up.
To paraphrase a very wise man, getting out of Iraq is going to be like “getting shit out of a jar of peanut butter.”
I do agree with plnnr… to a certain point… Bush, Wolfie and Rummy do beleive in the rubbish they spit out. They arent totally innocent … but they certainly arent “lying” as the OP implies.
Like the saying goes… repeat a lie often enough and people will beleive you. Eventually even yourself.
Don’t fool yourself. Over 50% of Americans are still fully behind Bush and his PNAC cronies.
Whether you call us liberal or not, we should NEVER stop the Consent Manufacturing by the US media that has brainwashed those 50% Bush-policy-backers.
I would not stop the revolt against the embedded journalists whose Propaganda is nothing but Prop-Agenda. And we know very well whose agenda they are propping. (Guess #1: those who pay their salaries?).
Call me a conspiracy loony (or the hijacker of this thread) if you wish. But the media moguls in the US are as much responsible for brainwashing the Americans as the PNAC neocon Nazis.
Preview. Preview…
Sorry. It should have said "NEVER stop the fight against … "
Summary: The USA said they were going to “liberate” Iraq but now France and Germany want assurances that “liberation” is really what is going to happen and the USA is refusing. I guess it was about the oil after all.
I never had the slightest doubt about that one.
BUt now I sure hope, that Bush gets so desperate, that he will give way to at least some of the pressure from especially the French in the security council.
I was talking to a polish guy this morning and he says that to his understanding they are pretty popular in Iraq. This stemming from the times when they were there as (communist) military advisors. No polish casulaties to this point. ( I don’t know though whether the real dangerous shit is still done by the US in that sector.) Maybe it is the first step towards an international force UNDER UN COMMAND! The latter being the most important thing right now.
The U.S. and the UK invaded the country with no legal pretext and so it’s their job - and their moral and ethical duty - to fix the country and hand it back to the Iraqis in a usable state. If they want other countries to help, they should pay for it in full.
You broke it. You fix it.
Good point. But I get the feeling the US is simply unable to fix this. And millions have to suffer from this inability. So let the UN try and the US pay the bill.
Sadly, I have to agree with T. Mehr on his last point. Most of us here agreed that starting the war without UN support and, in fact, practically telling our “allies” that we didn’t need them was not only short-sighted but stupidly arrogant.
Bush’s speech last night made it clear he wants to save face and stay put, no matter how much it will cost us. I don’t think we can pull it off. There doesn’t seem to have been any real plan for buildinga new government there, and there was also was little consideration about whether the people will actually want us there or not. Our government simply assumed the populace would just drop to its knees and praise us for wiping out the dictatorship, despite the fact we don’t appear trustworthy.
The whole thing is pretty stupid.