On the subject of trans people and restrooms, telling them which bathroom they’re supposed to use is a Big Deal ™, at least according to the ones that I know (admittedly all transmen.) Going into the bathroom that matches your birth sex is like an admittance that your gender identity is wrong. If you identify as male, there’s no reason to go into a female restroom, even if no one else in the men’s room has a binder and innie bits instead of outie bits.
[QUOTE=Duke of Rat]
The headline of the cited article says “Lesbian…” while the body says “The Transgender Legal Defense and Education Fund, which filed the lawsuit in state court, says Farmer’s case may set an important precedent.”
So is she a female lesbian, or a M>F transgender that still had manly bits?
[/QUOTE]
See this New York Times article, which says:
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn]
I don’t know what her license is supposed to prove though, it’s not like they verify gender at the DMV, do they?
[/QUOTE]
Actually, her ID is a State issued non-driver ID (I guess Johnny L.A. quoted my post before I got the edit in to correct originally mistaking her ID for a Driver License). From the same article:
She looks female to me. Not feminine, but definitely female.
So… at least the bouncer didn’t whup her upside the head with a crowbar, did he?
[QUOTE=movingfinger]
So… at least the bouncer didn’t whup her upside the head with a crowbar, did he?
[/QUOTE]
Gee whiz… she’s not deaf!
[QUOTE=Eyebrows 0f Doom]
She looks female to me. Not feminine, but definitely female.
[/QUOTE]
My thoughts exactly.
[QUOTE=Fetchund]
I am a lesbian. I often get mistaken for a male. It doesn’t happen so much when my hair is longer, like now, but when I am sporting a buzz-cut, then, yeah. I am NOT trying to be a man. I am NOT trying to be masculine. I’m very female, in fact, I am so female that I prefer females!
But… I am not going to let society tell me that I have to look a certain way in order to be a female. I like my hair short - I work outdoors and with puppies, and either is easier with a buzz cut. I wear loose-fit clothing and tools, as a part of my job. I’ve never understood why ANYONE wears any makeup, so I’m not going to do it myself. I’m not going to artifically raise my tenor voice. I like my voice! I don’t shave anything - why should I?
[/QUOTE]
I’m a straight woman, and I tend to look a bit androgynous when my hair is short (it’s kind of short now, though not anything like a buzz cut).
I don’t wear makeup- the last time I did was at my wedding in 2003, and the last time before that was for my high school picture in 1992. My skin chemistry is weird, so makeup tends to change color on me.
I normally wear loose-fitting clothes, and they’re generally clothes that could be worn by either men or women (a typical outfit is pants and a T-shirt or polo shirt). They’re not necessarily men’s clothes, though- a lot of them come from the women’s section of the Lands’ End catalog. I’m not going to wear more revealing or form-fitting or clearly feminine clothes- I like my loose-fitting shirts and pants, and I don’t necessarily like how I look in more stereotypically feminine outfits.
I’m enough of a klutz that high heels aren’t a good idea- I’ve already sprained my ankles enough times, thankyouverymuch. And my feet are of a shape that shoes with pointed toes hurt. I’m not going to wear shoes that hurt and are likely to result in a sprained ankle just so I can fit someone’s stereotype of femininity better.
I’m a woman, and don’t have any gender identity issues. I’m just not into stereotypically feminine makeup, shoes, and (to a lesser extent) clothes. Should I have to use the men’s rooms? (Can I use them when the lines for the women’s are really long?)
[QUOTE=Anne Neville]
(Can I use them when the lines for the women’s are really long?)
[/QUOTE]
Go right ahead.
Oddment: I was on the bus to go up to a protest regarding the cuts to Status of Women Canada. I was one of very few men in the convoy. We stopped at a Tim Horton’s en route, resulting in a big traffic jam on the way to the bathrooms. Women were using both bathrooms, basically out of expediency. I was waiting in line, when suddenly all the women ahead of me sort of went, Oh, gosh, an actual guy! and basically insisted I go ahead of them into the men’s. I was perfectly content to wait my turn, but apparently, as an Actual Guy, I had the priority claim on the bathroom despite the exceptional circumstances. And this was several busfuls of annoyed feminists, mind you. It was an odd experience of how much of a hold those little signs often have.
In Greenwich Village yet, and at a place that displayed a “gay rights” flag. yet. And what’s a “pubic restroom” as mentioned by HuntsvilleTxVeteran in the first article’s comments?
[QUOTE=Ignatz]
In Greenwich Village yet, and at a place that displayed a “gay rights” flag. yet. And what’s a “pubic restroom” as mentioned by HuntsvilleTxVeteran in the first article’s comments?
[/QUOTE]
Exactly what it sounds like, apparently. 
[QUOTE=matt_mcl]
Actually, there used to be such laws: when transvestism was a criminal offence, there were actually laws identifying how many pieces of women’s clothing a woman had to be wearing at all times.
Apparently, certain news site posters would like to see a return to those times.
[/QUOTE]
Didn’t drag queens/cross-dressers/transwomen used to attach a tag to their dresses saying something along the lines of “I’m a boy” to avoid the laws (did that actually work :dubious: ). And while I don’t have a cite don’t some US towns still have old laws on the books forbidding women from wearing pants or getting their hair cut?
I read the comments after the article, and was surprised (but not very) at some people’s willful ignorance in this day and age.
I’m a female who sometimes likes to wear hoodies or baggy Ts and jeans on weekends, as I’m doing now. If I’m not wearing make-up or jewelry, and have my hair pulled back and you can’t see it, I could (if you squint) be mistaken for an overweight boy. It scares me that I could be kicked out of a place for not dressing “right” or looking “gender-appropriate”, probably the same place that would offer me top-notch service if I was wearing heels and the sweater sets and skirts I wear to work most days. What century are we in, anyway?
BTW, I’ve been known to use the men’s room if there was a line for the ladies’ room and it was one of those places with only one toilet per bathroom, like Starbucks. I even took my daughter into the (one-toilet) men’s room once in an emergency. Bad mommy! Bad mommy!
[QUOTE=Eyebrows 0f Doom]
She looks female to me. Not feminine, but definitely female.
[/QUOTE]
She looks male to me. Not masculine, but definitely male.
Not that either of our observations have anything to do with the rightness or wrongness of the bouncer’s actions, which look inappropriate.
[QUOTE=matt_mcl]
Oddment: I was on the bus to go up to a protest regarding the cuts to Status of Women Canada. I was one of very few men in the convoy. We stopped at a Tim Horton’s en route, resulting in a big traffic jam on the way to the bathrooms. Women were using both bathrooms, basically out of expediency. I was waiting in line, when suddenly all the women ahead of me sort of went, Oh, gosh, an actual guy! and basically insisted I go ahead of them into the men’s. I was perfectly content to wait my turn, but apparently, as an Actual Guy, I had the priority claim on the bathroom despite the exceptional circumstances. And this was several busfuls of annoyed feminists, mind you. It was an odd experience of how much of a hold those little signs often have.
[/QUOTE]
Strange - I’ve been at large outdoor concerts where the organisers have made the ridiculous mistake of having as many female as male toilets. Anyway, the women’s attitude when lining up for the men’s toilet was pretty much ‘screw you, I got here first, gender is irrelevant in a warzone!’. Maybe if they were ‘annoyed feminists’ instead of just women who were busting to go, I would have had better luck 
Trans-gender friends of mine were discussing the politics of toilet attendance years ago and I’ve never forgotten it. For them (one M->F and one F->) it had never been an issue as they dressed strongly towards their identified gender.
One of their pre-op friends, however, was on the verge of being fired because he kept changing his appearance, dressing feminine one day and masculine another and used the toilet he was dressed for. His bosses ended up saying that they didn’t mind *which *toilet he used, as long as he picked one and stuck with it. Then they had to get him back in the next week and ask him to consistently *dress *like a girl if that’s the toilet he wanted to use.
He ended up not going through with the gender reassignment, living and relieving himself as male.
As for the OP, the ID could have been accepted. There would have been a brief apology and no lawsuit.
[QUOTE=Musicat]
She looks male to me. Not masculine, but definitely male.
Not that either of our observations have anything to do with the rightness or wrongness of the bouncer’s actions, which look inappropriate.
[/QUOTE]
Why the snarky attitude? Of course the bouncers actions were inappropriate. Did my post suggest otherwise? 
My mom’s ex-girlfriend used to have this problem alot when I was a teen-ager. I’m sure she still does.
I’m really not getting what people are say about “she chose to look like a man there for she should suck it up and continue to act like a man” (lose quote) my mother’s ex would look pretty horrid if she tried to dress more feminine. It is the way she was born. Not a militant dyke butching it up. But because she is six foot two she sticks with mens jeans and t-shirts and such.
So unless you are a lipstick lesbian you aren’t allowed or shouldn’t think about using the ladies room? Hell, there is no doubt that I am female and I were more mens clothes than female clothing because it is more comfortable for me. Should I use the mens room?
And with people being more out and secure in who they are or in who they want to be society should start seeing this becoming a norm.
Unless someone is going through gender re-assignment people don’t choose their looks and some ladies are just born a little more male than others as some men are born just a bit more feminine than others.
I have mentioned a few times I was raised by a pack of wild lesbians so I’m not just talking out my ass about things.
As a teen-ager it used to upset me greatly when I would go places with “dad” and right before she would go to the rest room someone would say “uh, that’s the ladies room sir” or when she would take me to my doctors appointments for my braces and you had to ask for a key to the restroom they would hand her a key to the mens room and she would have to correct them and even then the people were odd about it. It hurt me to see her going through that but she dealt with it with amazing calm.
[QUOTE=chaoticbear]
On the subject of trans people and restrooms, telling them which bathroom they’re supposed to use is a Big Deal ™, at least according to the ones that I know (admittedly all transmen.) Going into the bathroom that matches your birth sex is like an admittance that your gender identity is wrong. If you identify as male, there’s no reason to go into a female restroom, even if no one else in the men’s room has a binder and innie bits instead of outie bits.
[/QUOTE]
I can imagine. At a place I used to work we had someone going F->M. As it became obvious, the management announced it, to let people know what was happening. At one one point when she->he was ready, they said she->he was switching the the men’s restroom. It was a good solution, since no one was surprised, and no one was upset.
I wonder if going the other way is harder.
When we were in Europe we found many places had one bathroom with completely enclosed stalls inside, so that both sexes went into the room where the sink and mirrors were and then chose a stall, any stall, for their private business. Too bad we can’t adopt that system. Much more sensible and no worries about what room to use. Less plumbing too (one set of sinks). Each stall went to the floor too (which could have saved Larry Craig a lot of trouble…)
Some places have men, women and family restrooms; I guess those who are somewhat ambiguous could use the family one (unless you get kicked out for using the family restroom without your family with you).
[QUOTE=Eyebrows 0f Doom]
Why the snarky attitude? Of course the bouncers actions were inappropriate. Did my post suggest otherwise?
[/QUOTE]
No. 