Woman ejected from restaurant because she looks male

[Swallowed_My_Cellphone]

@missbunny

She’s lesbian, not pre- or post-op transgendered. She’s a woman with short hair and no makeup, not a woman who (at least based on the information provided) identifies as being of the male sex. I’d say that means she should feel free to use the women’s bathroom.

My sister is a lesbian. She identifies totally as female because she’s not transgendered. She also plays a lot of sports so keeps her hair short (often in one of those girlie faux-hawks). She’s tall enough and with her athletic build, she’s gets guyed regularly. On several occasions she’s been blocked by bouncers on her way into washrooms in bars. As soon as she speaks and they hear her voice, the issue is usually resolved with an apology and my sister making a joke along the lines of “It’s okay, I’m a hockey player. It happens a lot.”

She has made no deliberate effort to “subvert societal norms” by taking on a male appearance. She just doesn’t wear make-up and keeps her hair short.

My girlfriend has short hair and wears no make-up for the same reasons (sports and because if she lets her hair grow she looks like Sideshow Bob). She gets guyed sometimes too and she is a straight woman. (My girlfriend has very feminine features, so that’s incomprehensible to me. My sister is tall enough and braod shouldered enough that it’s quite plausible for her to be mistaken for a guy, but really my girlfreind is too slight to look like a guy).

Even a really butch lesbian is a woman, identifies as a woman, and should use the women’s bathroom.

And if it was a man using a stall in the ladies room, so what? Maybe there is a good reason, like the guy was sick and had to use the john nownownow and coulnd’t wait for the men’s room. As long as he isn’t trying to peep or is exposing himself, and don’t actually see the problem.

[Johanna]

@Voyager

I can imagine. At a place I used to work we had someone going F->M. As it became obvious, the management announced it, to let people know what was happening. At one one point when she->he was ready, they said she->he was switching the the men’s restroom. It was a good solution, since no one was surprised, and no one was upset.

I wonder if going the other way is harder.

I did it the other way at work last week upon legally changing my name. I had the full support of the management, and it has gone perfectly smoothly. On October 11 (National Coming Out Day), the management called an all-hands meeting and told everyone of my transition. Then I came into work in a skirt suit and got lots of compliments on my looks. People at work have accepted me as the woman I am. Many of my friends commented on my success that it has helped to restore their hope for humanity.

I feel blessed to be transitioning nowadays, because until now my easy and pleasant experience has not been the norm, many of my sisters have been discriminated against, fired, and excluded from employment. I’m profoundly relieved that things are changing now in the business world (with or without ENDA), and trans people have a more positive outlook now for the future.

[Ellen_Cherry]

I just want to tell Fetchund – your post was very informative and made me smile. Thanks for sharing your expertise!

[WhyNot]

@Johanna

I did it the other way at work last week upon legally changing my name. I had the full support of the management, and it has gone perfectly smoothly. On October 11 (National Coming Out Day), the management called an all-hands meeting and told everyone of my transition. Then I came into work in a skirt suit and got lots of compliments on my looks. People at work have accepted me as the woman I am. Many of my friends commented on my success that it has helped to restore their hope for humanity.

Yay!

@kayT

Some places have men, women and family restrooms; I guess those who are somewhat ambiguous could use the family one (unless you get kicked out for using the family restroom without your family with you).

I use the family restroom while alone quite often. I never cut off a visible parent with kids or elderly to do so, but it’s generally larger, which is great for my fat ass (seriously, a few stalls require acrobatics to get the door closed with me in it), and better kept, because it’s not used as much. I’ve never been stopped for going in without a family with me.

Frankly, I think we should just move to unisex bathrooms everywhere. I have yet to hear a cogent argument against them that doesn’t boil down to “ew, but then THEY would know I shit!”

I, at least, have never ever, been naked or bare in the middle of a restroom, so I don’t really care who’s out there, as long as I have a private stall. If men want to keep their urinals, can’t we put a visual barrier up just in front of the urinals to protect our delicate sensibilities? The same half-walls they use for stalls would work just fine, and leave them open enough for quick security monitoring but discrete enough for polite society.

This bouncer was an ass for not looking at the ID and then profoundly apologizing. I understand that it’s his job to keep things safe, but not allowing her to show him her ID was just stupid.

[Trisha_McMillan]

@WhyNot

Frankly, I think we should just move to unisex bathrooms everywhere. I have yet to hear a cogent argument against them that doesn’t boil down to “ew, but then THEY would know I shit!”

A growing number of bars and clubs in London have unisex toilets or at least very little real partitioning between the two. At first I felt instinctively put off by the idea, but after a ‘discussion’ or two with friends and a little honest introspection I managed to come to the conclusion that my disquiet was because it was ‘I don’t know, just weird’.

Fortunately my more logical side tells me that this is just not a very good reason for anything! I think like most societal norms it comes down to nurture. We have learnt that we have men’s and women’s toilets because we *should * relieve ourselves separately whereas actually we do that separately just *because * we have separate bathrooms.

I’ve just had to shake off the slight discomfort and get over it.

[Kalhoun]

@lorene

Oh my word, the comments after that article practically made my eyes bleed.

No shit! It’s a scary world out there.

[Kalhoun]

@Johanna

I did it the other way at work last week upon legally changing my name. I had the full support of the management, and it has gone perfectly smoothly. On October 11 (National Coming Out Day), the management called an all-hands meeting and told everyone of my transition. Then I came into work in a skirt suit and got lots of compliments on my looks. People at work have accepted me as the woman I am. Many of my friends commented on my success that it has helped to restore their hope for humanity.

I feel blessed to be transitioning nowadays, because until now my easy and pleasant experience has not been the norm, many of my sisters have been discriminated against, fired, and excluded from employment. I’m profoundly relieved that things are changing now in the business world (with or without ENDA), and trans people have a more positive outlook now for the future.

Good to hear about your success story. Was anyone at work surprised or was this just the formal icing on the cake?

I worked with a woman who was 6’3" and dressed in a masculine fashion (though I have no idea if she was a butch lesbian or if that was simply her preference/physical lot in life, but she startled the hell out of me in the bathroom one day. Once I realized she was a woman, I never thought twice about it.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Grrrrrr! This shit pisses me off. I would have a very hard time keeping my temper in check and my mouth shut if I ever had such an encounter with the employee of a business that I was patronizing. The double takes and the women who go back out and check the door to make sure they’re in the right restroom once they see me are dealt with easily enough with mocking laughter.

I’d find it difficult not to put myself in jeopardy of a physical confrontation or arrest if I were asked to leave in such a manner. If he wasn’t getting physical, I’d seriously consider flashing the bouncer my tits. If he attempted to put his hands on me in any fashion, I do not think it would go well for me.

[Paul_in_Qatar]

@Cluricaun

In other words, if you’re going to look like a guy, why not just use the guys bathroom? Honestly I don’t care who uses what bathroom and when, I’m just curious.

Humm… because you could be arrested? Just throwing ideas out here.

[Fetchund]

@Ellen Cherry

I just want to tell Fetchund – your post was very informative and made me smile. Thanks for sharing your expertise!

You are quite welcome!

[beanpod]

Crap like this gets me all riled up. There’s so many angles to look at this, and all of them are bad. It brings me right back to arguments in my sophmore women’s studies class.

I’m a straight woman, with an obviously female figure, and I’ve been growing my hair out lately. I tend to wear jeans and steal my husband’s t-shirts. I like the occasional skirt, and sometimes like to do the whole girly thing and get my nails done and pluck my eyebrows and all that junk. Sometimes I don’t shave my legs for a month and wear old flannel shirts over t-shirts & jeans. Sometimes I have short hair. Sometimes I have long hair. Where does it stop? Am I less entitled to use the toilet unharassed one week compared to the next? And while I’m at it, why are women allowed more variability from traditional gender appearances than men (in most cases)? And why the heck can’t we just share bathrooms and get over ourselves? [checks forum…bites tongue] Darn it.

This makes me want to shave my head and tape down my breasts and go glare at people while handing out copies of Everybody Poops. It’s ridiculous. A mention of this really belongs in the “let’s complain about gender inequality” pit thread. There’s just so much wrong going on here, and it’s bad for everyone.

[RumMunkey]

OK, I’ll be Devil’s Advocate here then.

I think the bar did nothing wrong.

In fact, I think the bar treated her the exact same way they would have treated anybody they thought was up to no good. A bouncer’s job is not to sift through information and make a decision, it’s to identify a possible problem and remove it, quickly, no questions asked.

Forget for a second that this woman is a lesbian. Forget the entire gender issue.

Say she was a diabetic in the stall with a needle, giving herself an insulin shot. Another patron mistakes this for a junkie getting high and tells the bouncer. The bouncer, based on the information he’s given (even if mistaken) is going to remove the offender from the establishment. He comes in, sees a needle, that’s the only confirmation that’s required on his part. He’s not a cop. He’s not a judge or a public official. He’s a private employee of a private establishment hired to keep troublemakers out.

Same with a fight. If there’s a fight and you’re standing next to the people fighting, and the bouncer thinks you’re involved, you’re out. No questions asked, no interview, no statement, no nothing. Out the door. I’ve seen it happen.

Here, the bouncer obviously thought there was a man, probably a perv of some sort in the ladies room and removed him. He saw the woman, also mistook her for a man (and be honest, it’s not a difficult mistake to make) and removed her. He did exactly what he’s there for.

I think too many people are letting the fact that this woman is a lesbian come into play at all. It totally doesn’t matter. They treated her like they would have treated anybody else, and after all isn’t that why we march down Church Street every year? Equality?

At most, the bar owners should say “sorry”, buy her a drink and be done with it. That’s all they would do for me, and that’s all I expect them to do for anyone.

[beanpod]

Y’know, RumMunkey, you really do bring up a good point there–that’s she was treated the same way anyone else that the bar suspected would have been treated. And I hadn’t thought of it that way, and it actually makes the whole thing seem less sinister. (Thanks for reminding me why I signed up–people disagreeing with you making cogent and reasoable arguments. It’s amazing!) I’m not sure if I were in that situation if I would feel a lawsuit was in order. If anything, I’d be mad and embarrassed and not return to the restaurant.

What gets me about the whole thing is what it says about gender roles and gender taboos in our society. If you don’t fit a mold, you’re to be ostracized–it’s the fact that not dressing femininely was enough for them to suspect her of being up to no good.

[Blaster_Master]

@RumMunkey

OK, I’ll be Devil’s Advocate here then.

I think the bar did nothing wrong.

…

I agree with this argument. The bouncer is ALSO concerned with the comfort of other customers. Does it make reasonable sense, from a business perspective, to allow one person, even if not acting out of malice, to potentially disturb several other customers? Though I am not one, I can completely understand how a woman would feel… if she thinks a man is in the restroom, maybe he’s a perv… maybe he’s waiting to rape her. Don’t you think that would put a stigma on her desire to return to the establishment? Hell, I wouldn’t put it past a man who would be so deprived to have a fake ID to make it okay to do so.

Further, there’s simply a matter of choice and consequence. Yes, there are matters of society and gender issues, and I can understand defying them, but you ALSO have to accept that you WILL be judged on your appearance. Case in point, I knew a few people, each very personable and everything, but they were going through a goth phase around the same time as the Columbine shootings… thus, going around the mall, or down the street wearing a trenchcoat would render stares, comments, and the occassion superfluous interaction with police officers. They didn’t make any behaviors to warrant these sorts of reactions, but they DID make conscious choices with regard to their appearances well aware of how society would receive them.

IOW, I fully support this woman’s right to appear however she wants (well, running around naked would be pushing it), but to have this sort of reaction that another woman mistook her for a man and was uncomfortable using the restroom with her and as a consequence was removed from the establishment… well, that’s just a victim mentality. If she believed in her cause, she would contact whatever relavent activist groups she wants, and organize some sort of boycott, but suing just makes it look like she’s petty and wants to make a quick buck.

[Kalhoun]

@RumMunkey

Say she was a diabetic in the stall with a needle, giving herself an insulin shot. Another patron mistakes this for a junkie getting high and tells the bouncer. The bouncer, based on the information he’s given (even if mistaken) is going to remove the offender from the establishment. He comes in, sees a needle, that’s the only confirmation that’s required on his part. He’s not a cop. He’s not a judge or a public official. He’s a private employee of a private establishment hired to keep troublemakers out.

That kind of “zero tolerance” thinking would get the establishment into a pretty nasty lawsuit, I’d bet.

[Fetchund]

@Blaster Master

I agree with this argument. The bouncer is ALSO concerned with the comfort of other customers. Does it make reasonable sense, from a business perspective, to allow one person, even if not acting out of malice, to potentially disturb several other customers?

Funny, I would say that the person trying to oust someone from the restroom because she doesn’t fit their idea of femininity is the one disturbing other customers. Heck, the woman who got booted wasn’t disturbing anybody! She was going to the bathroom!

What if the other customers were upset because she was black? Do they still have the right to eject her? Nope.

And any bouncer who is going to boot somebody for using insulin had better be prepared for lawsuits, too.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

BLaM- Are you seriously advocating an implied (not posted) “No shirt : no shoes : no chromosome-appropriate appearance: NO SERVICE!!!” attitude as within bounds for a bar? For a grocery store? For a gas station?

[Kalhoun]

@Blaster Master

I agree with this argument. The bouncer is ALSO concerned with the comfort of other customers. Does it make reasonable sense, from a business perspective, to allow one person, even if not acting out of malice, to potentially disturb several other customers? Though I am not one, I can completely understand how a woman would feel… if she thinks a man is in the restroom, maybe he’s a perv… maybe he’s waiting to rape her. Don’t you think that would put a stigma on her desire to return to the establishment? Hell, I wouldn’t put it past a man who would be so deprived to have a fake ID to make it okay to do so.

Further, there’s simply a matter of choice and consequence. Yes, there are matters of society and gender issues, and I can understand defying them, but you ALSO have to accept that you WILL be judged on your appearance. Case in point, I knew a few people, each very personable and everything, but they were going through a goth phase around the same time as the Columbine shootings… thus, going around the mall, or down the street wearing a trenchcoat would render stares, comments, and the occassion superfluous interaction with police officers. They didn’t make any behaviors to warrant these sorts of reactions, but they DID make conscious choices with regard to their appearances well aware of how society would receive them.

IOW, I fully support this woman’s right to appear however she wants (well, running around naked would be pushing it), but to have this sort of reaction that another woman mistook her for a man and was uncomfortable using the restroom with her and as a consequence was removed from the establishment… well, that’s just a victim mentality. If she believed in her cause, she would contact whatever relavent activist groups she wants, and organize some sort of boycott, but suing just makes it look like she’s petty and wants to make a quick buck.

I suppose all those tramps in their short skirts deserve to be raped? Those bitches were askin’ for it, right?

[Siege]

I have a friend who has short hair, usually wears jeans and t-shirt and may look a bit mannish – opinions vary. RumMonkey, should she be allowed to use a ladies room in public? I don’t understand why a person’s sexuality is even relevant to this discussion. She wasn’t evicted because she was a lesbian; she was evicted because someone thought she looked like a man and the bouncer refused to accept evidence to the contrary. What was she supposed to do? Drop her pants or lift her shirt and prove to the bouncer that she wasn’t a man?

Sheesh!

[Miss_Purl_McKnittington]

@RumMunkey

Say she was a diabetic in the stall with a needle, giving herself an insulin shot. Another patron mistakes this for a junkie getting high and tells the bouncer. The bouncer, based on the information he’s given (even if mistaken) is going to remove the offender from the establishment. He comes in, sees a needle, that’s the only confirmation that’s required on his part. He’s not a cop. He’s not a judge or a public official. He’s a private employee of a private establishment hired to keep troublemakers out.

Oh, bullshit. I’ve been a diabetic for nearly twenty years, and I’ve never had anybody assume I was a junkie because I was giving myself an injection, though I’ve given myself injections in a variety of public places. I’ve also never seen a bouncer summarily kick a nonviolent person out of a bar or restaurant, either. If the bouncer is incapable of fully assessing a situation, maybe s/he shouldn’t be in that line of work.

And if some bouncer tried to kick me out of a bar because he thought I was a junkie? I would raise a huge fuss. An unholy fuss. If someone was “uncomfortable” because of the syringe, well, screw them. I’m not going to hide what keeps me alive as if it’s shameful because someone got the willies. (If they had a phobia, I’d apologize, because that’s a rough situation, but how many people have honest-to-goodness, incapacitating needle phobias?*) And I don’t think this woman should have to show photo ID to use the bathroom. I’m not sure she’s a “troublemaker,” either.

[sub]*Watch as the six hundred Dopers who have bona fide needle phobias come pouring out of the woodwork.[/sub]