Woman fired for eating pork

[Brutus]

@yosemite

Isn’t there a law against dicrimination against homosexuals? Besides, what in the world do you mean by “The Gay” anyway? What specifically do you mean by this? What behavior would this be?

It could mean whatever. Employee A mentions to Boss B that he and his boyfriend went to some new restaurant over the weekend. Eegads! The gayness is unclean, so out he goes!

We also have laws against religous discrimination in this country. Being fired for not observing another religions dietary laws smacks of discrimination to me. Not to mention, dietary laws are frigging stupid, IMO. If your deity of choice will give you the boot for eating a tasty slice of Virginia ham, well, you need a new deity of choice.

Anyway, where is the law that protects those who feel that they must eat pork (even though they don’t really have to) at work? Where?

That is just silly. You brought a Pepsi to work instead of Coke? FIRED. You have no specific right to not being fired for drinking Pepsi, you know.

To me this is about common courtesy. If I knew that eating (let’s say) broccolli in front of someone made them really grossed out, made them feel compelled to wash down their whole kitchen, and they’d asked me several times to not do it, I’d just not eat freakin’ broccoli around them.

You should probably suggest a good therapist to them if a common food item freaks them out like that. And pork is most definitely a common food item in these United States.

So if I deliberately choose to eat broccolli in front of them, knowing ahead of time that it’ll gross them out Big Time, then I’m being a first class selfish cow. If I keep on eating broccolli in front of them after they keep on telling me to please not do it because they find it disturbing and disgusting, it also is going to look suspiciously like I kept on eating the broccolli because I enjoyed grossing them out and causing them distress.

No, you eating some tasty broccolli. Your OCD ‘OMG ITS BROCCILLI’ coworkers have the problem, not you.

I am not arguing about the legality of what happened. Dunno, leave that to the lawyers to establish. But the ethics of it stink.

[yosemite]

@Brutus

It could mean whatever. Employee A mentions to Boss B that he and his boyfriend went to some new restaurant over the weekend. Eegads! The gayness is unclean, so out he goes!

What religion tells its followers that somehow they are affected by someone mentioning that they went to a restaurant, and with whom?

If the boss hears the gay employee talk about going out with his partner, what is the boss compelled to do, according to their religious law? Are they compelled by religious law to clean their kitchen? Go to church for 24 hours? Scrub out their ears? What?

What religious law says that a person can’t talk to a gay person, or to hear the gay person talk about their partner? If their religious law forbids them from associating with gay people, then they have to find a way to do that without breaking discrimination laws.

Being fired for not observing another religions dietary laws smacks of discrimination to me.

They are not requiring that someone adhere to someone else’s religious dietary laws, they only want for someone else’s actions to not interfere with their dietary restrictions (i.e. forcing them to scrub down the microwave/kitchen, etc.)

Not to mention, dietary laws are frigging stupid, IMO. If your deity of choice will give you the boot for eating a tasty slice of Virginia ham, well, you need a new deity of choice.

Who gives a shit what your opinions are, or my opinions, or anyone else’s opinions are on their dietary choices? Is the dietary choice endangering their health? Is it endangering the health of anyone else who is asked to wait until they get home before eating the offending food? If it’s not harming anyone, who cares whether or not any of the rest of us think it’s stupid or not?

You brought a Pepsi to work instead of Coke? FIRED. You have no specific right to not being fired for drinking Pepsi, you know.

And so you think that this supports your case that this woman should have not been fired? I’m not following you.

You should probably suggest a good therapist to them if a common food item freaks them out like that. And pork is most definitely a common food item in these United States.

Once again, who gives a shit what your opinion is, or my opinion is? Only a major dolt would knowingly eat something that was grossing out someone else to that degree, “just because they could” eat it.

Your OCD ‘OMG ITS BROCCILLI’ coworkers have the problem, not you.

Do you know why they don’t want to be around broccoli? Did I say why? Do you get to decide what reason is a good enough reason for someone to be revolted by a particular food? And if it doesn’t pass muster with you, well, then screw them, you’re going to eat it every damned day, just to show them?

Now, if they were dictating that nobody could eat anything that was green, or couldn’t eat anything green on alternating Thursdays, then all eyebrows would be raised. But if they had one request about one food that is not exactly mandatory daily lunch fare for most people, and it was backed up with a semi-comprehensible reason “It’s against my very well-known religion” or “I had a traumatic incident with broccoli and an opposum as a child and I vomit every time I see it” then only a clueless, callous dolt would say, “Screw you, I don’t care, I want to eat it whenever I want to, who cares about you.” And if you have a whole building full of people who are saying that it grosses them out big time, and you still insist on doing it (because “you can”) then it would seem likely that you are just doing it because you get off on upsetting a whole lot of people.

Frankly, I think someone who insisted on doing that, knowing how it was going to affect a lot of other people, then they are in need of some therapy themselves, for being such a terminal asshole.

[Mighty_Girl]

@Brutus

It could mean whatever. Employee A mentions to Boss B that he and his boyfriend went to some new restaurant over the weekend. Eegads! The gayness is unclean, so out he goes!

Well, if he had sex with his bf IN the office then yes, he should be fired. Notice how she wasn’t fired for eating pork outside the office.

IMO. If your deity of choice will give you the boot for eating a tasty slice of Virginia ham, well, you need a new deity of choice.

Excuse you! That is an arrogant attitude, you want to impose your beliefs - or lack thereof - on other people. That’s like kettle and pot having an argument over who is blacker.

That is just silly. You brought a Pepsi to work instead of Coke? FIRED. You have no specific right to not being fired for drinking Pepsi, you know.

Actually yes, that’s what happens if you work for Coca Cola.

You should probably suggest a good therapist to them if a common food item freaks them out like that. And pork is most definitely a common food item in these United States.

Are you suggesting that religious people are lunatics? Mentally defficient? Sick somehow? I don’t want to go there, really. I am an atheist that respects people’s choice of religion just as wish mine were respected.
This will be breaking news for some: People don’t have a right to an specific job. Unless they discriminate you in a way that is specifically forbidden by law you are only left with getting a new job. I wouldn’t go as far as Aldebaran, but yes, if the boss is paying he has the right to call the shots. If that includes banning sugar from the job because he’s on Atkins, then he has every right. You need your sugar while you are working? Get another job ASAP.

[Unregistered_Bull]

It’s a freedom of religion violation as it imposes a religous belief or act on other employees. I doubt that it would have made the news if it was a Jewish company though.

[Mighty_Girl]

@Mighty_Girl

Are you suggesting that religious people are lunatics? Mentally defficient? Sick somehow? I don’t want to go there, really. I am an atheist that respects people’s choice of religion just as wish mine were respected.

Well, I retract that. Not all people who see a therapist are lunatics (some may be), but being religious is not a case for a therapist. A philosopher maybe, but not a therapist.

[Odesio]

@yosemite

To me this is about common courtesy. If I knew that eating (let’s say) broccolli in front of someone made them really grossed out, made them feel compelled to wash down their whole kitchen, and they’d asked me several times to not do it, I’d just not eat freakin’ broccoli around them. It isn’t as if I have to eat broccolli. Like I’ll die if I can’t eat it until I get home. It’s just one food and there are so many others to choose from.

Common courtesy cuts both ways though. Even though someone might be grossed out by broccoli it is still unreasonable of them to ask me to refrain from eating it in the common eating area. Why should someone elses psychological hangups affect what I eat at lunch? It isn’t as if others are forced to refrain from eating pork it’s just a choice that they make. It isn’t as if they’re going to die or be harmed because someone eats it in front of them.

Marc

[Enginerd]

@Brutus

I am not arguing about the legality of what happened. Dunno, leave that to the lawyers to establish. But the ethics of it stink.

I’m at a total loss trying to understand why “the ethics of it stink.” If I’m the supervisor of twenty people, and 17 or 18 of them all find one particular thing objectionable, I’m not going to allow that objectionable thing in the work environment. I don’t care whether it’s pork, bananas, Justin Timberlake music, or internet porn. Otherwise, I’ll have employees who are distracted and offended and (and this is the important part) not providing good telecommunications services. That makes for a nonproductive work environment. Maybe I find the same thing objectionable, and maybe I don’t, but I surely don’t want it distracting my employees from the job that I’m paying them to do.

I love pork. I probably eat pork in one form or another 5 or 6 times a week. But it wouldn’t kill me to forego it while I was at work, especially if a) it really offended my coworkers, and b) IT WAS THE COMPANY POLICY! The fact that she was warned twice and continued her behavior in an even more egregious fashion is just pushing me further over toward the company’s side.

[Enginerd]

@Machetero

It’s a freedom of religion violation as it imposes a religous belief or act on other employees. I doubt that it would have made the news if it was a Jewish company though.

It doesn’t impose a religious restriction on anybody. The woman is free to eat as much pork as she wants, as long as she does so where it will not affect the employer’s business. The employer is requiring that his employees observe rules that are geared toward a productive work environment. That’s all.

@MGibson

Common courtesy cuts both ways though. Even though someone might be grossed out by broccoli it is still unreasonable of them to ask me to refrain from eating it in the common eating area. Why should someone elses psychological hangups affect what I eat at lunch? It isn’t as if others are forced to refrain from eating pork it’s just a choice that they make. It isn’t as if they’re going to die or be harmed because someone eats it in front of them.

Marc, I have severe reactions to bananas. I’ve never been able to eat one without vomiting, the smell of bananas make me gag, and if someone were to eat a banana in my office, I would have to leave for a couple of minutes. During those minutes, I’m not doing the job that I’m paid to do. If everybody in the workplace reacted to bananas the same way that I do, it seems utterly reasonable to prohibit them in the workplace. You can eat bunches of them on your way in, on your way home, on vacation, or wherever else you go - just don’t eat them at work. Why is that a problem?

[Unregistered_Bull]

@Enginerd

It doesn’t impose a religious restriction on anybody. The woman is free to eat as much pork as she wants, as long as she does so where it will not affect the employer’s business. The employer is requiring that his employees observe rules that are geared toward a productive work environment. That’s all.

So wearing a Burka or a head scarf and veil could also be a requirement if not doing so could affect the employer’s business?

[Enginerd]

If everyone is required to wear a Burka, yes. If such a rule were selectively enforced (i.e. only women have to wear the Burka), I would have a problem with it, but if everyone in the workplace is subject to the same rules, I don’t see a problem with it.

That’s admittedly a ridiculous answer, since the Burka is a gender-specific garment. But there’s a world of difference between prohibiting pork and requiring the burka.

[Odesio]

@Enginerd

Marc, I have severe reactions to bananas. I’ve never been able to eat one without vomiting, the smell of bananas make me gag, and if someone were to eat a banana in my office, I would have to leave for a couple of minutes.

I don’t know how sensitive your nose is but I can’t generally smell a bannana unless I’m extremely close to it. I once worked at a place with a sizable number of Vietnamese workers and some of the things they brought for lunch produced a vile stench and looked wholly unappetizing. I must have thicker skin then others because I learned to live with it instead of complaining. While I don’t believe it would be unreasonable to restrict foods with strong odors I do think it’s unreasonable to ban pork outright. I don’t see why someone should be penalized because they don’t adhere to some silly superstitious belief. And yes, it is a silly superstitious belief.

Marc

[Odesio]

Although I do believe it’s unreasonable to ban pork from a common eating area were I the employee I wouldn’t have purposely broken the rule. As an employee I’ve followed all sorts of stupid rules in the past and I’m sure I’ll follow stupid rules in the future. We all have conflicts in our lives and we have to decide when it’s time to just let it roll off your back or take a stand and fight. I just don’t think it’d be worth fighting the rule. On the other hand I don’t eat pork very often but if I can from a pork heavy background I might feel different.

Marc

[Enginerd]

@MGibson

I don’t know how sensitive your nose is but I can’t generally smell a bannana unless I’m extremely close to it. I once worked at a place with a sizable number of Vietnamese workers and some of the things they brought for lunch produced a vile stench and looked wholly unappetizing. I must have thicker skin then others because I learned to live with it instead of complaining. While I don’t believe it would be unreasonable to restrict foods with strong odors I do think it’s unreasonable to ban pork outright. I don’t see why someone should be penalized because they don’t adhere to some silly superstitious belief. And yes, it is a silly superstitious belief.

I don’t have a particularly sensitive nose, just a very small office.

I don’t think your workplace with a sizable number of Vietnamese workers is analagous to this situation. At this company, the vast majority of the workforce is Muslim, with only a few workers who aren’t. Cooking pork, especially in the forms that she brought in (sausage and bacon) does have a strong odor, and it’s easy to see how people who view pork as unclean would be offended.

I disagree that it’s a “silly superstitious belief,” but that really doesn’t matter. Given that the belief exists, the rule is entirely reasonable.

[yosemite]

@MGibson

I don’t see why someone should be penalized because they don’t adhere to some silly superstitious belief. And yes, it is a silly superstitious belief.

So who gives a damn what your opinions are about someone else’s “superstitious belief”? Are they asking anyone to share these beliefs, or to think that they were good, sensible beliefs? Or are they just saying, “This is how we feel and what we believe.” What do your feelings have to do with what they believe? They aren’t asking you to share their beliefs, they are just asking that you not (in essense) gross them out and crap on their beliefs, within a certain range of them, and in certain limited circumstances.

I have no particular feelings about graves and graveyards. People in our family are cremated, and we just don’t have that reverence for graves and burial grounds as other people do. But if someone asked me to, for instance, not step on someone else’s grave, even though I personally think it’s silly and superstitious, I wouldn’t step on the grave.

I wouldn’t offer my opinion to them about the silliness of thinking that anything is important in that grave. I wouldn’t tell them that their feelings are silly and superstitious. I wouldn’t expect them to give a shit about what I felt about it. It causes me far less distress to not step on their relative’s grave then it does for them to see me step on it, so I wouldn’t step on it.

Then again, I suppose I could step on someone else’s relative’s grave, tell them that their feelings of distress are based on a “silly superstitious belief” and that they can shove it if they didn’t like it, because I can step wherever I want, just because I can. Of course, that would make me a first class selfish cow, but I could do that, as long as there was no law forbidding me from doing it.

[Odesio]

@Enginerd

I don’t have a particularly sensitive nose, just a very small office.

I don’t think your workplace with a sizable number of Vietnamese workers is analagous to this situation.

Is roughly 50% sizable enough? If not then at what percentage does a group become signifigant enough to consider?

Cooking pork, especially in the forms that she brought in (sausage and bacon) does have a strong odor, and it’s easy to see how people who view pork as unclean would be offended.

How strong? I know frying up some bacon in the kitchen is quite aromatic but the policy is against pork of any kind. Period. I sprinkle bits of bacon on my salad and I can assure you that it doesn’t have a particularly strong odor. Yet it would still be banned under their stupid policy.

I disagree that it’s a “silly superstitious belief,” but that really doesn’t matter. Given that the belief exists, the rule is entirely reasonable.

We’re just going to have to disagree here. I don’t find the rule to be particulary reasonable though it the grand scheme of things I guess it isn’t that big of a deal.

Marc

[Odesio]

@yosemite

So who gives a damn what your opinions are about someone else’s “superstitious belief”?

Why the fuck should someone elses opinion on the cleanliness of pork be given any respect?

What do your feelings have to do with what they believe? They aren’t asking you to share their beliefs, they are just asking that you not (in essense) gross them out and crap on their beliefs, within a certain range of them, and in certain limited circumstances.

What do their feelings have to do with me eating a pulled pork sandwich for lunch? They are asking me to adhere to their beliefs in a common eating area.

I have no particular feelings about graves and graveyards. People in our family are cremated, and we just don’t have that reverence for graves and burial grounds as other people do. But if someone asked me to, for instance, not step on someone else’s grave, even though I personally think it’s silly and superstitious, I wouldn’t step on the grave.

Piss poor analogy. A cemetary is not a common area like a lunch room. I would never attempt to bring a pork product into a mosque, synagogue, or into a home that keeps kosher. A common area like a cafeteria is fair game though.

Then again, I suppose I could step on someone else’s relative’s grave, tell them that their feelings of distress are based on a “silly superstitious belief” and that they can shove it if they didn’t like it, because I can step wherever I want, just because I can. Of course, that would make me a first class selfish cow, but I could do that, as long as there was no law forbidding me from doing it.

So why are they being so selfish and demanding that others adhere to their beliefs? Just because my beliefs that pork is good isn’t based on religion it gets less respect then someone’s superstition?

Marc

[jsleek]

sort of related:
We had a Muslim exchange student in our home for a year. A whole year without pepperoni pizza. When he left, we ordered up a family size and it was so good.

[TeaElle]

@Enginerd

It doesn’t impose a religious restriction on anybody. The woman is free to eat as much pork as she wants, as long as she does so where it will not affect the employer’s business. The employer is requiring that his employees observe rules that are geared toward a productive work environment. That’s all.

Not so – the rule, it seems, would’ve prohibited the employee from leaving her lunch containing a pork item in her car in the company parking lot – even if she went out, got in the car and drove a mile a way before she ate it. Bringing pork anywhere onto their premises was banned. Now, if you can give a reasonable explanation of how having a ham sammitch or a BLT or a slice of sausage pizza in her car would lower the productivity of the work environment – absent Muslim workers getting in a snit over the very knowledge that this non-Muslim woman had pork and was gonna eat it, by gum – I’ll give you a quarter.

This rule encompassed much more than the specific behavior which apparently got this woman fired, and within the scope, you can see intent. If the only goal of the company was to keep a halal environment in the common areas (which in itself could be legally sticky if there was no accomodation for those who do not keep halal) or to keep the peace (i.e. preventing freakouts from Muslims who would be offended at the consumption of pork in the workplace) then what the employees kept in their cars wouldn’t be at issue.

And this is where the lack of written documentation can come back to bite the company in the butt. With nothing in the handbook or employment policy, when this gets into court, it’s going to be left to a judge or jury to determine whether or not the intent of the policy – which does have a basis in religion, there’s little room to deny that – was within the legally permissible scope of maintaining a preferable environment for the majority of employees or within the legally inpermissible scope of imposing a religious standard upon employees of a non-religious company.

But as someone stated three pages ago, that’s a finding of fact that’s going to be settled in a court of law.

Marc, I have severe reactions to bananas. <snip> If everybody in the workplace reacted to bananas the same way that I do, it seems utterly reasonable to prohibit them in the workplace.

Not an on-point analogy. Everybody in this workplace obviously did not have an objection to pork, because this woman worked in this workplace. If she was the only non-muslim you may be closer to the mark, but I’ve seen no data to support that idea.

[yosemite]

@MGibson

Why the fuck should someone elses opinion on the cleanliness of pork be given any respect?

You don’t have to think anything, good or bad, about the cleanliness of pork. Or you can think it’s complete BS, that’s fine too. Whatever you want to think is fine.

But it would be nice if you could decide that distressing a whole bunch of people over an issue (that is part of an old and well-established religion) is something that you don’t want to do. Because you don’t like the feeling of doing something in front of a bunch of people who interpret it as shitting on their feelings. Especially if the thing that is going to offend them is something that isn’t vital for your comfort, belief system, or survival. It’s just one of many foods that you occasionally eat, and can still eat for breakfast and dinner, and on weekends. (Or can eat outside, I presume.)

What do their feelings have to do with me eating a pulled pork sandwich for lunch? They are asking me to adhere to their beliefs in a common eating area.

If you pull out a pork sandwich, they have to clean the kitchen. This is part of their long-established religion. You know this. You know that a whole lot of them are going to be affected by you pulling out your sandwich. You also know that you can bring in a beef sandwich, a tuna sandwich, or a turkey sandwich, and they won’t have to clean out the kitchen.

But if you can enjoy eating the pork sandwich, knowing that all these people will have to jump through all sorts of religious hoops, well, then I guess you can do that. Because of course, it’s so terribly important to you to eat that pork sandwich, right then and there. Turkey or beef won’t do. Oh no. Gotta be pork, or else . . . or else what? You won’t see a bunch of people get really sickened and grossed out, I suppose. Can’t have that, eh?

A cemetary is not a common area like a lunch room.

It’s out in the open and anyone can walk into it (well, most cemetaries, I assume). And after all, it’s just a silly superstition, so who gives a damn what people feel? It’s stupid, right?

I would never attempt to bring a pork product into a mosque, synagogue, or into a home that keeps kosher.

Why? It’s a silly stupid superstition. Why should you have to change your habits, just to accomodate someone else’s useless, silly belief? The hell with them! Who cares if they are grossed out and upset? They’re believing in something stupid and superstitious. What do their feelings matter?

A common area like a cafeteria is fair game though.

Sure it is. And when you eat your pork sandwich, you can watch a whole lot of people be upset, grossed out, and feel compelled to sanitize everything after you leave. But that’s okay, because who cares? It’s their own fault for believing in something so silly, isn’t it?

And after all, your deep, abiding, desperate need to eat a pork sandwich right away, right there, is far more important than the fact that a whole lot of people are really grossed out. Who cares about them?

So why are they being so selfish and demanding that others adhere to their beliefs? Just because my beliefs that pork is good isn’t based on religion it gets less respect then someone’s superstition?

Is your belief that you’ve got to eat pork at work so strong? Is there some rule that you have to eat it at work? Have to?

I suppose if I wanted to I could dance all over everyone’s graves, because it means nothing to me if I do so. But I don’t have to do so, and it isn’t really hurting me terribly if I am asked, out of the respect for others’ feelings, to not dance on the graves. But aren’t they terribly selfish, to expect that of me? What about my heartfelt belief that it’s okay to dance on graves? What about those, huh? What about my feelings? :rolleyes:

[Polerius]

A few questions/comments:

1. It is legal for a company owned by a vegan, with a majority of its employees vegan, to require that *all * employees eat vegan food while on company premises?

2. From what people have said in this thread about how pork ‘contaminates’ everyting around it very easily, it seems that if you ate pork (and touched it) at home and came to work without washing your hands, you would spread the contamination everywhere you touched, making the whole workplace non-kosher.
   Even if you wash your hands upon arriving at the company, if you sneaze, most likely some pork particles will spread in the workplace.

So, it seems the only way a company can make absolutely certain of being kosher (or halal) is to forbid its employees from eating pork anytime, even at home.

And yet still the employees might touch a surface on public transportation on their way to work that has been contaminated with pork.

I just don’t see, if pork so easily contaminates everything around it, how it is possible to have a completely kosher or halal workplace.

3. People have brought up the common courtesy issue. If that is the case, then even in companies with 1 muslim, it would be common courtesy not to eat pork in the workplace, where that co-worker would be preparing and eating his lunch.

So, if in the future nearly all companies have at least 1 muslim employee, will common courtesy mean that no one should eat pork at work anywhere in the U.S. (or even the world)?

4. The sanity of the belief that pork is unclean does come into play. Some people on this thread brought up the analogy of eating sht. The problem with the analogy is that there are billions of people around the world eating pork everyday, with no ill effects. There are not billions of people around the world eating sht everyday.

The fact that some people consider an action that is performed by billions of people around the world, everyday, and with no problems, as being disgusting or unclean or unthinkable or whatever, does imply a lot about the sanity of the belief.

Some people with certain disorders (e.g. OCD, I think) may think that not washing your hands exactly 512 times will leave you full of germs. What they fail to grasp is that billions of people don’t wash their hands exactly 512 times and they don’t all drop dead from infections.

If there was a co-worker that thought that anyone entering the lunchroom should have to wash their hands 512 times, shouldn’t the sanity of his belief come into play? Should we all, out of common courtesy do what he wants, so as not to disgust him?