Let me bring another side to this discussion. It is very possible that the fired employee did not realize she WAS eating pork, until her coworkers complained.
Think about it. Do you really think “pork” every time you eat pepperoni? You’re running late, you grab something from the fridge for lunch as you run out the door, and you don’t necessarily take the time to run through a list of ingredients for the pepperoni. So that day at work, someone calls you on it and you realize, “wow, when I think pork, I think pork chops, I didn’t realize pepperoni is pork…won’t bring that again!”
So maybe you make the connection to ham, and you bypass the ham and cheese sandwich at the deli across the street from work the next week. But you want something light to eat, and you haven’t had a BLT in a while, and it’s cheaper than the chicken sandwich and you’re short on cash so you order a BLT and go back to you desk to eat and someone comes by and says “so what did you get over at Sam’s Deli…anything good?” and when you say BLT they scream “unclean” and then you realize they they don’t mean pork as in chops or roast or sausgae but anything that came from a pig, and since you’re sort of young and from the city you belatedly realize that bacon come from pigs, not cows, and then they fire you.
And maybe it was turkey bacon!
I can see how this would be totally accidental on the young woman’s part.
Well if the employer is so concerned about keeping a halal lunchroom, then they should also have an anything-goes lunchroom. The halal lunchroom is a de facto religious site. They should allow people who are non-religious to eat whatever the fuck they want.
Kind of the same way I react to mushrooms, which I consider to be filthy both because they are a fungus and because they grow on shit.
I don’t even think ‘pork’ about food often enough to have realized that my friend who does not eat pork for religious reasons was looking at me funny as hell when I asked if he wanted bacon on his cheeseburger.
It took me a minute to remember that ‘bacon’ is actually ‘pig’. No way would I be remembering that at 0700 when making lunch. Nor would I have even half a thought about the fact that the meatballs in the spaghetti are made of beef and pork mix. I had those meatballs today. I didn’t think about what was in them until I started writing this post.
Actually, there ARE organizations that can legally hire and act disciminatorially, organizations that are owned and operated by religious institutions. They may make employment decision based on religious tenets, even if the work they do does not directly involve church activities.
One example is the Christian Science Monitor. I worked as a part-time contractor for “Monitor Radio”, the broadcasting counterpart to the newspaper. I intended to apply for a full-time job. The application I received asked about my church membership, whether I tithed, engaged in premarital sex, or used drugs (including legal prescriptions). I did not apply.
It turned out that form was sent to me by mistake, and I received an apology. At the time, Monitor Radio was receiving public money in grants from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, and the Church and CPB had signed an agreement that all hiring for their radio programming would be non-discriminatory. The application I got was the normal one for the staff of the newspaper, which could hire only their own members if they wanted.
I think the company ownership structure is the key to determining what kind of work rules can be imposed. One day I had a headache and asked a couple of people in the Christian Science Monitor office for aspirin. Within minutes my boss showed up and told me never to do that again. They have a thing against medications, and I had no idea.
BTW, this was all quite a while back, in the late 80’s. I don’t recall any major rule changes since then, however.
Rising Star Telecommunications is not publicly traded, and it is definitely religiously based in philosophy if not legal structure.
Actually, WRT halal, the rules for cleansing are much less strict than those for kosher (at least speaking religiously; I’m sure there are cultural factors at work as well). To cleanse a vessel or utensil that has contacted pork, dog, or some other unclean substance, all that is required is for the object to be cleaned to the point where one cannot see/smell/feel/taste any traces of the offending substance.
Well, kosher is quite a bit more strict than halal. If these business owners are allowed to fire an employee for eating pork at lunch, would a Jewish business owner be allowed to fire an employee for failing to keep kosher while at work? Keep in mind that not only would pork be prohibited, but so would any mixture of meat and milk (no more cheeseburgers or meat-and-cheese sandwiches), and any meat would have to be kosher as well.
If an observant Jewish business owner has an employee who is also Jewish, but non-practicing, should the owner be allowed to fire the employee for not keeping kosher (since, according to Jewish law, the employee is required to do so)? If yes, should the owner be allowed to fire the employee for breaking other mitzvot while at work? For example, if the employee refused to wear tzitzis, or wore a mixed wool and linen garment to work, would you have an objection to the employer firing him?
FWIW, I think the analogy is apt, especially since personally, I don’t see a problem with eating dog and, secondly, I’ve had horse on multiple occassions, and I don’t think it’s terribly unusual (you’ll find horse sausage in various parts of Europe, and horse meat in many Mongolian barbecue restaurants.) Anyhoo…
Would it be very cynical for me to wonder out loud whether this woman wanted to be fired, perhaps in the hope of a profitable lawsuit?
Otherwise, perhaps I am jsut being cranky today, but it seems to me that both parties to this matter should have their heads bashed together.
Still, we have had some instructive posts in this thread, so that is all to the good. I admit it has previously occurred to me to wonder why one of my local shops, run by people who do seem to bew practsing Moslems, special Moslem radio on during Rmadhan, closure of shop on Friday afternoons etc. seems happy enough to sell pork products (in a prepacked sense, if that matters) . Not my business, and no big deal; - I merely thought - "but if I ran a shop and objected to pork, or any meant or any particular thing, then I would probably consider it wrong of me to stoock it.
MInd you I have been guilty of offereing pork sausage to a Moslem friend - heck - my excuse was that my social sensitiiivty “skills” (ha!) were not firing on all cybnlinder - primarily because I, my brother, and this friend had spent the earlier part of the evening drinking alcohol, so, it skipped my mind tht he might observe some rules and not others. (FWIW, hios reaction was to pretend not to be hungry - I did suddenly realise, but it seems that while he would not eat it, he preferrred not to draw attention to my faux pas. Liife is confusing! I suspect I was more upset than he.
“Don’t eat pork” is not dictating a religious belief.
I know others have said this in the thread, but apparently, it needs to be repeated over again.
“Pray to ______________” is dictating a religious belief. “Eat this food that has been offered to __________” may be dictating a religious belief. “Participate in this religious ceremony” is dictating a religious belief. “Wear this religious garment or symbol” is dictating a religious belief.
But unless your religion compels you to eat pork (and Catholicism most certainly does not), “don’t eat pork” is not dictating a religious belief.
((From a girl who had a delicious ham and cheese sandwich for lunch))
They do have a place where you can eat whatever the fuck you want. It’s called “everywhere else.”
If the owner required his employees to keep the workplace kosher, then yes. The woman in the OP was fired because she violated company policy, after first being warned for the same action. Is the worker in your example being fired simply because he does not observe the same religious customs as the owner, or because he brought prohibited items into the place of business? That seems to me to be a significant distinction.
This is a little trickier. The first question I would ask is whether the employer’s conditions are legal - can he legally restrict the job to people who observe the same religious customs that he does? If he can, and if the employee understands when he takes the job that adhering to the mitzvot is a condition of employment, then I have no problem with the owner firing him.
I had the same thought as Celyn when I read the article - this is a woman looking for a lawsuit. I wonder how she would feel about a coworker who kept a reproduction of Andres Serrano’s Piss Christ in his office.
It’s not dictating a religious belief, it’s dictating a religious practice.
For the record, I fully support the right of these employers to fire anybody they want. I just wish people would stop denying that this is an example of requiring a religious practice at work, when it so clearly is.
yBeayf, to my mind, requiring a religious practice at work would be requiring the worker to take part in a prayer circle. All the company has done is forbidden a single kind of food to be eaten by workers on the premises. It’s the difference between active participation, and avoiding stepping on other people’s metaphorical toes.
May I ask a question for general consideration:
Business X has a workforce that is 80% vegan, and has a policy that no non-vegan meals are to be eaten at the workplace. If one worker repeatedly brings in meals that are disturbing to the majority of the other workers in the workplace, in spite of repeated warnings, I’d think that the owners of Business X would be justified in firing the offending worker.
Vegan practices are not officially linked to any religion, AFAIK, so there’s no overtone of religious practices here. But they are far more restrictive than either kosher or hallal. And, easier to mess up, in my mind.
Is this scenario substantially different from what the OP’s scenario was? And if you do believe that it is, because of the religious involvement, does that mean that religious persons are less protected than Vegans?
If it was hot, then any metal item that it came in contact with needs to be unused for 24 hours and then boiled in hot water. And plastic or ceramic items cannot be cleansed of the traif taint at all.
If the employer’s case is really about Islam, I’m wondering why the only prohibition was against pork.
I don’t know jack about hallal but I’m assuming it has some commonalities with kosher. Kosher rules forbid MUCH more than pork. Surely hallal rules do as well. Does the company allow Jello? Meat with dairy? Non-properly-slaughtered beef?
If an employee could get away with eating a pickle processed with a bit of gelatin – again, assuming this would violate hallal rules – I don’t see how the employer can claim a religious objection to just pork. Either the place is completely hallal or it isn’t, and it seems to me that would involve much more than pork or no-pork.
I am not a Muslim, I am not a Jew, I am not anybody but someone who sees a possible fetish being made of just ONE aspect of “keeping hallal.”
But you have to ask, why are the prohibited items prohibited? Because of religious reasons. Therefore, you are forced to unwillingly follow customs of someone else’s religion.
Could this be an analogy? What if the company required all women to wear headscarves and long pants and long sleeves in the workplace. And if you didn’t, you would be fired? Is this a good analogy?
Or what about this: let’s say you worked in a conservative Christian workplace. Premarital sex is forbidden. You move in with your boyfriend and are “living in sin.” Can they fire you because of this?
Or you work in a Catholic workplace. It comes to your employer’s attention you are on birth control pills. Could they fire you because of this?
But where do you draw the line? It’s in the same fridge. It’s in the same room. It’s on the same floor. It’s in the same building. It’s in the same fucking TOWN! If it’s not being forced into your body, what’s the harm?
And in my hypothetical because of Vegan workplace it’s okay, since no religion is officially Vegan?
Let’s see, long pants, long sleeves, and headscarves? Sounds like it could be sensible gear for anyone working around rotating machinery. Mind you, if men aren’t held to the same standard, that’s different. Where in the OP was the policy being set by the business being selectively enforced?
This isn’t anyway related to the situation in the OP. The situation there was on the property of the workplace, remember.
See my previous comment.
Is there are reason you ignored my own hypothetical?
And, Kalhoun, what is the problem with not egregiously offending and disgusting the majority of the people you work with? Do you know any condition, religion, or even simple fad diet that requires pork to be consumed at EVERY meal?
I am Jewihs, and some of the assumptions I’ve made about halal in this thread have been shown to incorrect. However, as far as I know the only forbidden things are pork products and alcohol. The vinegar used in some salad dressings would be a concern.
Re The Reason For The Ban
It may not be strictly relgious. If the company’s primary customers are Muslems, and it presents the image of an Islamic company, it’s bad for business for an employee to be seen eating pork. This may be very close to Coke/Pepsi bans already mentioned.
I suspect I was more upset than he.