Women and cleavage

[you_with_the_face]

Just got off the subway in DC and while swimming along the sea of humanity, I noticed all manner of flesh. Plenty of cleavage, plenty of bare legs, plenty of bare arms. Men and women alike. And yet I witnessed no ogling or leering.

A guy wearing a muscle shirt might do so because he thinks baring his biceps makes him look more attractive than burying the brawn under clothes. Is he asking to be harassed and leered at? I’m just wondering what mundane fashion choices essentially serve as an invitation for female rudeness. Can’t think of any.

[Marley23]

@Acsenray

Actually it’s one that cuts against his own argument. Women—or anyone else shouldn’t be subject to demeaning commentary. Also, people attending athletic events shouldn’t be subject to harassment based on their team loyalties. We should set our expectations as a society to exclude both.

That too. But if I wore my Yankees cap to a Mets game - and I never do that for this exact reason - I’d expect at least a little ribbing because that’s how competition works. Wearing clothes out of your house is not the same as going to a rival stadium wearing “enemy” getup. That suggests Stringbean believes women should just be willing to put up with a great deal of hostility if they cross whatever line he believes separates wearing your own clothes from “flaunting” your body.

[Emiliana]

Well, crap, I never thought of just leaving my breasts at home.

[johnpost]

it seems breasts are a leading attraction.

[Drunky_Smurf]

@you_with_the_face

What counts as risqué versus modest varies widely. What counts as rude is less variable. By most reasonable standards, staring at a stranger is rude, even if they are wearing something that is wild and unusual.

This. It’s rude to stare at anyone no matter what they wear. A woman in a burka or a bikini or a super awesome dude wearing his cool, “I love midget goat porn.” t-shirt.

[Dangerosa]

@Urbanredneck

Well actually the free market DOES work because if one goes to the mall their are dozens of clothing retailers and many have their own “style”. So if you want a particular look I’m sure you can find a clothing retailer that sells it.

It is actually very hard.

There are tons of styles and stores at the mall that are appropriate for twenty two year old college students - or high school students that don’t have a dress code. But fewer stores that cater to women of a certain age. And if you are a young woman, your choices are often to choose to look like a 23 year old bar fly, or a middle age soccer mom. Its harder yet if you are working on a budget. Or if you have limited time to shop - which a lot of working young mothers do.

There was a period a few years ago where shirts simply were not long enough to tuck in. Not if you were shopping at Teeny Bopper Heaven, not if you were shopping at Land’s End or Eddie Bauer. And the period in which all pants fell below your belly button - I know women who didn’t buy pants for three years.

A number of years ago I got a new job and went out shopping to buy clothes for it in one of those “dearths of fashion” - six hours of shopping and I couldn’t find anything that was work appropriate and looked good on me in my price range. At the time I was a new mom coming back from maternity leave, so my previous wardrobe fit wrong - mostly across my new breasts and my new “now wider” hips. I ended up with a work wardrobe appropriate for a 60 year old woman - it was the only thing that covered adequately.

[kayaker]

The word “cleavage” always evokes Tom Waits . . .

[QUOTE=Tom Waits]
cleavage, cleavage thighs and hips
from the nape of her neck
to the lip stick lips
chopped and channeled
and lowered and louvered
and a cheater slicks
and baby moons
she’s hot and ready
and creamy and sugared
and the band is awful
and so are the tunes
[/QUOTE]

[even_sven]

I think a lot of men here really aren’t appreciating the sheer variety found in even ordinary women’s clothing. A man can pick out work pants, and they may be khaki or pinstripes, but for the most part they will cover the same parts and be a suitable fit for the work. Likewise, he may wear polo shirts or button ups to work, but within these the variations are minor (slim fit or standard? button down or not?), and with few exceptions they will all be acceptable to wear to work. Basically, when men pick out work clothes in their size, they know they are suitable for work.

I have lots of clothes, and I can’t even think of two shirts that I own that have the same neckline. My button ups range from matronly blouses to button popping club wear, but most of it is in between. Furthermore, retailers are not consistent in catering to the work-appropriate crowd, and the few store that do it well are on the higher end ($70-$120 per item, and even they often put the hemline a little too high or the neckline a little to low.

And then there are body types. I have wide hips, which can make a prim shift dress look nearly obscene. A big chest likewise looks provocative in what other would classify as conservative tops. And bodies change, especially with pregnancy. But they also just change through the month. Heck, even something like wearing tights can change if an outfit is appropriate or not. More than once I’ve greeted spring in a cute dress I’ve worn all winter, only to realize halfway to work that it’s too much with bare legs.

And that’s just a lot of stuff to balance. We can’t look matronly or prudish, but we can’t look too sexy or provocative. But we also need to project power while looking feminine but not too young and not too old. And fashionable without being too trendy.

And that goes for a dozen moving parts- makeup, skirt length, jewelry, undergarment lines, shoe height, strap width, etc. All of this crap needs to straddle a fine, nebulous line that we have to calculate basically from scratch every damn morning. And at six in the morning I have limited brainpower for any of this. So yeah, miscalculations (and sometimes a heap of “screw it, I’m putting on something clean and leaving.”) happens.

[Lamia]

@Stringbean

I think part of my point is that it isn’t “creepy” for a guy to admire breasts. If you parade your breasts around, the likelihood of encountering a real creep increases dramatically. I think most women are abreast of that fact, so they should expect such behavior if they wear exposing clothing.

And what sort of behavior should men expect if they ogle women?

[Tannim]

I for one am a bit confused. I saw it as people who wear clothing that they mean to be very revealing getting upset when someone looks being the issue. It’s the intent of the wearer that they want to be looked at by some they shoulnd’t complain if looked at by all when out in public. If you wear something purposefully to be looked at and then complain when looked at then that is your problem. I’m not talking leering or ogling just looking. Now rude behavior on both sides is wrong.

When things are accidentally or positionally revealing this will still draw your eyes, but I don’t think anyone complains about a glance or even a look unless they are trying to cause problems.

[Urbanredneck]

@Dangerosa

It is actually very hard.

There are tons of styles and stores at the mall that are appropriate for twenty two year old college students - or high school students that don’t have a dress code. But fewer stores that cater to women of a certain age. And if you are a young woman, your choices are often to choose to look like a 23 year old bar fly, or a middle age soccer mom. Its harder yet if you are working on a budget. Or if you have limited time to shop - which a lot of working young mothers do.

There was a period a few years ago where shirts simply were not long enough to tuck in. Not if you were shopping at Teeny Bopper Heaven, not if you were shopping at Land’s End or Eddie Bauer. And the period in which all pants fell below your belly button - I know women who didn’t buy pants for three years.

A number of years ago I got a new job and went out shopping to buy clothes for it in one of those “dearths of fashion” - six hours of shopping and I couldn’t find anything that was work appropriate and looked good on me in my price range. At the time I was a new mom coming back from maternity leave, so my previous wardrobe fit wrong - mostly across my new breasts and my new “now wider” hips. I ended up with a work wardrobe appropriate for a 60 year old woman - it was the only thing that covered adequately.

Ummm… Well… Ok you have made your point and changed my mind. Well actually me wife says the same.

But I still have trouble believing that with the millions of women out there with your issues that there cannot be a store for you.

[Urbanredneck]

@even_sven

I think a lot of men here really aren’t appreciating the sheer variety found in even ordinary women’s clothing. A man can pick out work pants, and they may be khaki or pinstripes, but for the most part they will cover the same parts and be a suitable fit for the work. Likewise, he may wear polo shirts or button ups to work, but within these the variations are minor (slim fit or standard? button down or not?), and with few exceptions they will all be acceptable to wear to work. Basically, when men pick out work clothes in their size, they know they are suitable for work.

I have lots of clothes, and I can’t even think of two shirts that I own that have the same neckline. My button ups range from matronly blouses to button popping club wear, but most of it is in between. Furthermore, retailers are not consistent in catering to the work-appropriate crowd, and the few store that do it well are on the higher end ($70-$120 per item, and even they often put the hemline a little too high or the neckline a little to low.

And then there are body types. I have wide hips, which can make a prim shift dress look nearly obscene. A big chest likewise looks provocative in what other would classify as conservative tops. And bodies change, especially with pregnancy. But they also just change through the month. Heck, even something like wearing tights can change if an outfit is appropriate or not. More than once I’ve greeted spring in a cute dress I’ve worn all winter, only to realize halfway to work that it’s too much with bare legs.

And that’s just a lot of stuff to balance. We can’t look matronly or prudish, but we can’t look too sexy or provocative. But we also need to project power while looking feminine but not too young and not too old. And fashionable without being too trendy.

And that goes for a dozen moving parts- makeup, skirt length, jewelry, undergarment lines, shoe height, strap width, etc. All of this crap needs to straddle a fine, nebulous line that we have to calculate basically from scratch every damn morning. And at six in the morning I have limited brainpower for any of this. So yeah, miscalculations (and sometimes a heap of “screw it, I’m putting on something clean and leaving.”) happens.

Why I’m glad I’m a guy.

Why again do men want sex changes?

[Don_t_Panic]

@Urbanredneck

Why again do men want sex changes?

Functional nipples. These vestigial things that men have are giving me the creeps.

[Stringbean]

@Acsenray

Actually it’s one that cuts against his own argument. Women—or anyone else shouldn’t be subject to demeaning commentary. Also, people attending athletic events shouldn’t be subject to harassment based on their team loyalties. We should set our expectations as a society to exclude both.

You and Marley are talking in the ideal sense. We as a society shouldn’t leer and ogle at breasts and heckle people who wear certain sports caps.

I agree with that. If I haven’t made that obvious enough, then I’ll say it again. We shouldn’t do that.

Such a proclamation doesn’t change the fact that if you wear revealing clothing, certain men will ogle and leer. I am not here to defend these men; they’re creeps. I am also not here to defend a woman who wears a revealing top then expresses anger that some men ogle her breasts. She should expect such behavior and if it really bothers her then she ought not wear a revealing top.

I am here to express the rationalist view that some men are inherently creeps and it serves you no good to pout about it. We all tailor our behavior to our environment. Decisions necessarily take into account the likely behavior of others.

[Acsenray]

After an entire thread in which women have described in detail the Catch-22 situation they’re put in and you circle back to this?

[Don_t_Panic]

@Stringbean

I am here to express the rationalist view that some men are inherently creeps and it serves you no good to pout about it. We all tailor our behavior to our environment. Decisions necessarily take into account the likely behavior of others.

But the creeps somehow get a free pass on that?

[Marley23]

@Stringbean

You and Marley are talking in the ideal sense.

No, we are not. We’re talking about what mature adults can do and the right way to treat other human beings.

Such a proclamation doesn’t change the fact that if you wear revealing clothing, certain men will ogle and leer.

And that’s a law of the universe is it? Ogling and catcalling and so are are just written in stone and nothing can be done about them? I’m unconvinced.

I am not here to defend these men; they’re creeps.

You won’t defend them, but unfortunately talking about the issue this way tends to excuse their behavior.

I am also not here to defend a woman who wears a revealing top then expresses anger that some men ogle her breasts.

Why does that require defending, and why are you implying it’s just as wrong as the behavior you described above as creepy? And once again, why are you so sure you can define what revealing is and what kind of response should be expected?

I am here to express the rationalist view that some men are inherently creeps and it serves you no good to pout about it.

I’m not a creep. Why don’t you lecture the creeps?

@Acsenray

After an entire thread in which women have described in detail the Catch-22 situation they’re put in and you circle back to this?

It’s not like it’s the first time.

@Martian Bigfoot

But the creeps somehow get a free pass on that?

There are consequences: Stringbean will say they’re creeps… grudgingly… anonymously on the internet… while saying women who dress revealingly are just as bad… I’m not sure the creeps will be able to live with that!

[Stringbean]

@Acsenray

After an entire thread in which women have described in detail the Catch-22 situation they’re put in and you circle back to this?

I’ve said everything I can say at this point. There’s no use in repeating ourselves over and over. If you really consider it a major societal problem that women get ogled over their fully-covered breasts, then we have different experiences.

I have very rarely seen a situation in which a man ogles over fully-clothed breasts. I can’t really think of a single time I have seen it happen.

I have, however, seen it happen a lot when the breasts are revealed by skimpy clothing. If a woman has her breasts fully clothed and gets ogled then there’s nothing I can do except apologize for my gender. The ogler must be a real creep to do that.

[Marley23]

@Stringbean

I’ve said everything I can say at this point.

I’ve asked you a bunch of questions and you’ve ignored them. For example, have you ever considered your role all of this?

If you really consider it a major societal problem that women get ogled over their fully-covered breasts, then we have different experiences.

…so she’s fair game if there’s anything showing at all?

[Stringbean]

@Marley23

I’ve asked you a bunch of questions and you’ve ignored them. For example, have you ever considered your role all of this?

Now you’re placing the behavior of others on my shoulders?

Isn’t that what I allegedly have done to women who wear revealing tops?