Just because they share the first two letters, doesn’t mean me=men. “Responsible for me” ≠ “Responsible for men”. Men are adults, and as such, responsible for their behavior. I’m not responsible for anyone’s behavior other than mine, my pet, and up till a certain age, my children.
Yes. This. I mean, it’s really just a matter of understanding that you’re a person and she is also a person and while you might find her attractive and enjoy looking at her, that is not the reason she exists. It’s so easy and uncomplicated that I’m flabbergasted at how many men in this thread are acting like it’s some impossible thing.
Um, just no. I’ve seen all sorts of things out in public, from unsettling stuff to people baring body parts I’m attracted to, and it’s still not their fault if I don’t have the good manners God gave a gnat if I can’t control myself. Amazingly, it’s on me. And that goes from someone with a physical deformity that could upset to a really hot guy with his pecs hanging out. How does anyone past third grade not know this??
Oh, and one more thing… as others have beat their head against a wall repeating, there’s a huge difference between an appreciative glance and your eyeballs shooting out your head and tongue hitting the floor, a la some Loony Toons skit. But y’all know this.
If you know men are going to ogle and yet you continue to wear exposing clothing, you can’t whine that men are ogling you. It doesn’t matter that you consider the ogling to be inappropriate or otherwise unappealing. Part of being a rational actor is to tailor your behavior to your environment. Expecting others to always behave in accordance with your preferences is nonsense. Ogling isn’t illegal, so don’t get pissed when men ogle. Wear a shirt that covers your breasts or expect to be ogled.
I misused the word “responsible” in post #137. The man who ogles is responsible for ogling, there is no doubt about that.
[Bolding mine.]
What I’ve highlighted is the salient point though. Women upon women have pointed out that, upon occasion, they didn’t intend for any cleavage to be on display. Due to faulty clothing (like buttons that gape when you answer a phone), not my design, men ogle. As others have pointed out, I’ve also had guys act an utter fool when I’ve worn things that haven’t been in the least revealing. Now, since I’m no movie star, this hasn’t happened all that frequently. However, that drives home the issue further. If someone just middle of the road can make that take place just from a sheer accident of birth (the boobs God gave me), how much is it ridiculous that men blame their lack of control on forces beyond mine?
Unless you believe men shouldn’t ogle you. There’s nothing inconsistent or whiny about that belief. It’s true that in the real world everybody has to take practicalities into account, but the issue here is that some behavior is not polite or reasonable even though it’s common. When you’re on the wrong end of that behavior, you - women, in this case - are sometimes forced to choose between facing oafish behavior or restricting your own behavior just to avoid random jerks. That’s not very fair, is it? And it’s not unreasonable to bring up the fact that you have shitty options and try to change the equation.
Of course it does- unless for some reason you’re not a member of society or your opinions count less than everyone else’s.
I am pretty sure people are allowed to be annoyed be legal behavior. Maybe you can show me a law that says I’m wrong.
Many posters have already pointed out that this wouldn’t work.
Indeed! You used it to mean the exact opposite of what it means. Perhaps you can see why that’s a problem.
Where do you draw the line, though? Ogling is rude and by definition, socially unacceptable behavior. Shouldn’t that factor into your analysis?
What counts as risqué versus modest varies widely. What counts as rude is less variable. By most reasonable standards, staring at a stranger is rude, even if they are wearing something that is wild and unusual.
Cleavage doesn’t give someone license to be rude. Do you agree with this?
Being a rather passive man, I dont often get tangled up in this issue. I glance for a moment at most…maybe a moment more if the woman isnt aware that I am looking, then I look away and continue with my life. If she notices me looking, I tend to look her in the eye for a moment, smile, then continue on with what I am doing. Sadly, I was also passive when it came to asking girls out, making my interest in specific girls known, etc. I am sure its rooted in some self esteem bit mixed with growing up in a house with all women. (always put the seat down as an adult…lol).
Somehow, at 36, given the above, I have pretty much always been in a relationship since about 15. Not sure how I managed it…although most of my exes were more the forward type.
I have always wondered how things might have turned out if I had been more forward of a person, whether it came to approaching, talking, flirting or oggling.
I see it all the time, the guys that hollar and harass random women…and quite often end up in the company of those women.
I am assuming there is a balance between passive and aggressive and I think most women want someone in the middle that can occasionally display more/less extremes of each behaviour.
The manner in which one ‘appreciates’ cleavage is probably the deciding factor as to how a woman might react. Crude actions/responses are probably going to yield an eyeroll and sigh, whereas appreciating just a bit so she notices, then maybe striking up polite conversation (no matter how benign) would yield a better response.
I recall having a woman approach me from behind to ask me for directions and I turned around an was caught off guard. She was extremely attractive and well endowed…my eyes did linger for a sec as I was trying to look her in the eye to figure out what she wanted. She asked me where a building was. My brain simply failed to operate as i stood blinking at her trying to regain composure. SHe them smiled at me apparently realizing what was happening to me. I assume at that point I must have turned 5 shades of red prior to gaining enough clarity to answer the question. She kissed me on the cheek and dashed off in the direction of the building. I was slightly off the rest of the day…lol.
It must suck to be a woman. The ugly truth is that men love breasts. We love to catch a glimpse.
If you have a nice pair or even a pair of middling quality men are going to look if the opportunity arises. It’s actually hotter to see a sneak peak through a button-down shirt than when they’re plastered in front of you. At least for me.
I wish we weren’t animals but some of us try and at least hide it.
Well actually the free market DOES work because if one goes to the mall their are dozens of clothing retailers and many have their own “style”. So if you want a particular look I’m sure you can find a clothing retailer that sells it.
It sounds like you’re changing your tune a little bit. That’s pretty much all the OP (or anybody else) has to do. Isn’t that more reasonable than telling women they need to cover up their breasts and legs and butts or else they have to expect people to creep them out?
I think part of my point is that it isn’t “creepy” for a guy to admire breasts. If you parade your breasts around, the likelihood of encountering a real creep increases dramatically. I think most women are abreast of that fact, so they should expect such behavior if they wear exposing clothing.
Nobody said it’s creepy for a guy to admire breasts.
What does it mean for a woman to parade her breasts around? I think usually they go wherever she goes.
OH MY GOD SUCH A BRILLIANT PUN (that’s not what abreast means).
As probably a dozen people have pointed out, this is about men’s behavior as well as women’s expectations. Part of the issue here is that women are expected to calibrate their behavior around low expectations for men.
Aside from the obligatory:
My over-arching point is that we are all expected to calibrate our behavior based on the likely actions of others. I don’t wear a Jets cap to a Patriots game. There is nothing “wrong” in doing so, yet I would fully expect to get heckled and insulted. It is easy for me to say that it is unfair, and I may well be correct, but reality is what it is.
I have already expressed sympathy for women who get ogled over their breasts. For those who truly despise this behavior and who do not wear exposing clothing, the ogling is an utter shame. Those who enjoy the attention and who do flaunt their breasts deserve the ire of the aforementioned unappreciative women. Directing this all at men is only half the picture.
Unless you’re talking about a woman who can order tailor made clothes, you’d be wrong about that. The dozens of clothing retailers are subject to the availability if styles made by manufacturers. And the majority of low end manufacturers tend to follow the same trends.
Sadly, this is not the case. Just because a lot of women want to buy certain types of clothes, doesn’t mean that they’ll be available. More and more women need plus sized clothing. But it is still difficult to find good choices, and shown here, here, and here.
There are many plus-size women who want cute, flattering clothes, but have trouble finding them. So some of them are probably wearing clothes that are more revealing than they’d prefer, or don’t realize how revealing they are until they wear the clothes. I’m guessing plenty of women who can wear the regular sizes have similar problems. Like a women could wear the size 6 shirt and it’s a little too tight around the breasts but otherwise looks good, or the size 8 and it’s big enough in the breast area but too big and unflattering otherwise. She might then buy the size 6 shirt hoping it’s not really all that bad since she wants a new shirt.
I don’t want this to descend into grammar haggling, but no, that’s still an incorrect use of the word. “Abreast of” means aware of, but abreast does not mean aware. Anyway, puns? Sir, we are better than that! 
I think everybody understands that. You can’t just use it to short-circuit a discussion of those actions. That’s the kind of thing that people call victim-blaming.
That’s a very telling (read: depressing) comparison.
…you expressed sympathy eventually, when people pointed out your initial comments were unseemly.
But if they expose even an inch of flesh, it’s their fault, right?
You seem very confident you can tell what a woman wants when she gets dressed. I don’t think you can actually figure that out in any reliable way.
Actually it’s one that cuts against his own argument. Women—or anyone else shouldn’t be subject to demeaning commentary. Also, people attending athletic events shouldn’t be subject to harassment based on their team loyalties. We should set our expectations as a society to exclude both.