I wasn’t there, so I don’t know what her attitude was like. But maybe Streisand was tired after filming and found it more relaxing to stay at her place rather than socialize with strangers, even as nice as I’m sure they were. I’m also guessing Streisand’s workday was longer than Nolte and Banner’s since Streisand directed the film. When I think diva type behavior, I don’t really think of someone just not coming over to hang out.
Not crimes against nature, exactly, but definitely a horrible person. All of those could apply to John Lennon, who, despite his talent, was a complete and utter douchebag.
I hear ya, and I understand she was probably tired, but especially being the director, a simple, “Hello, nice to meet you, thanks so much for letting us use your house” would have sufficed. They didn’t expect to become her new BFFs or anything. And if Blythe Danner, who is responsible for bringing us uber-snooty Gwyneth Paltrow (who was also there with her mother, btw) can speak to people and manage not to be rude…well, you know…
And tying this back to my other comments about aging gracefully and performing, I do have to give Streisand credit where credit is due in that department. She looks great, and has moved way past Funny Girl and A Star is Born, seems to embrace the different stages of her life, and that’s all any of us can do, I guess.
The thing is, she is well known for being that way. South Park noted it. She even has a phenomenon named after her, based upon her standoffishness.
Streisand also married James Brolin. 
I know her since high school, that’s definitely her real name. She was just a nasty, hateful, vindictive person, and totally two-faced about it as well. I know a number of people who ended up on her Enemies List for no reason other than she thought they were her competition in some way: she would be sweetness and light to their faces, character assassin behind their backs. Horrible person.
Madonna, Streisand, fair game as far as I’m concerned. But no one is bad-mouthing Blythe Danner while I’m around.
She’s not a “fucking nutjob”, she’s a survivor of child and sexual abuse. I don’t know what you’re objecting to there.
I realize that many differ on this, but I can separate the artist’s works from the artist. I’m not giving up my Darkover books. On the other hand, when I talk about them to someone unfamiliar with the scandal I let them know about it so they can decide whether or not to read them since so many people do fell carry-over squick. In the end, it should be a choice on the part of the reader.
That said - when reading Moira’s essay I could see a lot of them themes that were presented in MZB’s work as positives and, in fact, horrible things to put into practice in the real world. But then, I long thought MZB’s presentation of polyamory, group marriage, free sex, and lesbianism to be somewhere between flat out wrong to wishful thinking. They probably were wishful thinking. That is, in some ways, the provenance of science fiction writers.
Look, I think she’s wrong on that point but given her past I can understand why she came to that conclusion. I disagree with her, but don’t condemn her for her viewpoint.
Sadly, I’ve encountered those attitudes long before I read Moira’s essay - there are people who believe those things and even try to put them into practice. Probably the most egregious one I’ve personally experienced was a woman who, in front of my husband, insisted that I was really actually a lesbian but just didn’t know it yet and I just needed the right woman to show me the truth of the matter (with her, of course, being that woman). Which is very small potatoes compared to what Moira and others have gone through. Anyhow, “everyone is really a homosexual, they just don’t know it” is just the flip of “everyone is really a heterosexual and homosexuality is a learned perversion”.
Is there something that made you think that **Grumbacher ** would disagree with this?
Nope, I think I was just surprised that someone was surprised that such, shall we say, dysfunctional attitudes are out there. Then again, having worked in the social services field at one point I’ve known people whose life stories make Moira’s look mundane and tame by comparison. Some truly horrific things happen, so horrific that most people would rather doubt the victim than accept that such horrific things occur.
I think that’s a valid sticking point despite the whole “I can separate their works from their lives” angle. When you’re effectively reading a defense or promotion of the author’s sins under a guise of fiction, it goes beyond “Well, he murdered nuns and orphans but I can still appreciate his cat paintings”.
If you’re a good person and you write about bad things, fine
If you’re a bad person and you write about unrelated bad things, I’ll give it a chance
If you’re a bad person and you’re using your work to defend the bad things you’ve done and calling it art, eh… there’s enough quality stuff from categories A & B that I don’t need to take part.
I’ll make a point of remembering that! 
And she herself was lovely, so it’s somewhat of a mystery where her daughter acquired all that pretension.
I might have missed the post, but I didn’t see any athletes mentioned.
Off hand I can’t think of any truly horrible women athletes, certainly not like a Ty Cobb.
Tonya Harding has been mentioned. And deservedly so!
Ronda Rousey was mentioned for beating her ex-boyfriend and Tonya Harding for having her rival’s knees whacked.
I really was surprised, and it’s not like I have lived some super-sheltered life, or anything. I have had, and am still having, a few adventures of my own.
I also have had quite a number of gay male friends over the years, and they would joke constantly about this or that hunky male celebrity being gay and just doesn’t know it & needs them to show them that they are, etc… I always took it for exactly what it was, joking and fantasies, and wishful thinking. They didn’t seriously think the whole world is homosexual and doesn’t know it. I do find it completely shocking that somebody would actually put these ideas into practice in a group setting over such a long period of time. It is warped, and sad, and I do feel so very sorry for her children. So if Moira acts a little off the beam, then it’s pretty understandable.
As for separating the artist from the work, that’s the subject of the thread and the struggle to be grappled with, isn’t it? I have been able to sort it out in my head with other artists and historical figures, given some time, so I expect I will be able to process this out too.
I never read anything past The Mists of Avalon, never got into any of her other work, so likely I will just leave it at that.
And I’ll add U.S. Soccer goalie Hope Solo, who has a history of questionable sportsmanship, making rude comments, and a marriage which has featured her being involved in violent altercations several times.
I could be wrong on this, but I get the sense that MZB wasn’t writing those things as defense so much as a wish fulfilment. And really, the sex was not the primary focus of her Darkover series. It does become a focus or a plot device at times, but there’s considerably more there than that.
There always were some Darkover stories I didn’t care for, and most of those were what I called radical lesbian separatism in theme. Nor was it always a matter of all sex is good - there are people terribly hurt by sex abuse in those stories. Sexual slavery is definitely depicted as a negative, as is rape. The puzzling thing is that she didn’t see what she was doing to her daughter as rape. Or she didn’t care.
It seems, based on my limited information, that MZB was herself a victim of abuse. While not all victims carry on abuse another generation it’s not unheard of either. The whole business strikes me as a multi-generational mess that involved a lot of denial and co-dependent type behavior. That in no way excuses anything, but I do feel understanding how this situations come about can be useful both for helping the victims and for trying to avoid future damage.
I think MZB had a fantasy of group pansexuality where everyone was happy all the time but that’s not realistic, and damn few people can really handle polyamory. Victims of sexual abuse with untreated damage from that abuse are almost certainly incapable of a healthy form of polyamory. I’m not at all surprised everything went down the shitter in real life and it’s tragic that so much damage was done to her children.
I don’t think hiding these things benefits society (or the victims) in the long run. This sort of abuse thrives in the shadows and needs to be dragged kicking and screaming into the light in order to clean things up. I don’t think banning or destroying an artist’s body of work is the solution to the problem(s).
It’s possible to enjoy much of the Darkover series without delving into the abusive passages. I think there might be a role for discussing how the disturbing passages in the series do or do not relate to real life, the differences between the fictional treatment and reality. On the other hand, because I am not a survivor of sexual abuse I can look at and discuss the subject in a very different manner than many survivors. It doesn’t hurt me personally the way it can hurt them.
At this point I’d steer people to the Darkover novels that are less problematic (including those stories by others than MZB) and I certainly wouldn’t argue with anyone who disposes of their copies or refuses to read the books from an ethical standpoint.
Yeah, the vast majority of the time that’s what it is - joking around. That’s why it can be shocking when you meant someone dead serious about the “joking”.
Absolutely.
I do kind of wonder what is up with the woman who is continuing the Darkover series. MZB supporter? Lucked on to a paying writing gig and doesn’t want to rock the boat? That’s a heck of an ethical morass to have gotten trapped in.