Women like pockets, but fashionable dresses, etc, don't have them, why?

For crying out loud I do not think that women don’t really want pockets! I think that clothing manufacturers are missing an obvious trick because they’re led by traditionalist asshats.

Let me try to rephrase.

If there really is demand for pockets on stylish women’s clothing (and I believe there is based on the responses of women both in this thread and those I’ve spoken to irl), then there is a competitive advantage to be gained in the marketplace by producing clothes that satisfy that demand. That this market is in fact underserved is an instance of market failure. I am not a free market fundamentalist. The free market fails all the damn time. See, for example, your next example of health care, where it fails horribly for numerous reasons, many of which are obvious.

The mystery is why there is a market failure here, because this is a case where the market is largely unfettered, there aren’t any obvious mismatches in incentive structures like in health care, there’s no huge additional cost to adding the supposedly desired features like my luxury subcompact example, and in response to your assertion the extra variety in women’s clothing types and styles makes this all more complicated, I say that the decision to add pockets or not to any specific garment in the design phase is a simple, binary decision. Either you stick a pocket onto that dress, or you don’t. Nothing complicated about it. Applies to a wider array of SKUS, but that’s not really material to the decision about the single design under consideration. And if adding the pocket would increase sales, and you don’t add it despite that because “it would ruin the lines” or whatever, then you’re a bad capitalist and you’re leaving yourself open to the next guy stealing your sales. And the fact that no one else is stealing those sales by sticking pockets onto their offerings means they’re all bad capitalists.

Side note, and not to hijack the thread, but the health care example is a good example of market failure, but not a good counterexample to my ‘if unmet demand, then missed business opportunity’ axiom, because of the weird disconnects in the US health insurance market, where the purchasers of insurance are mostly employers, not the insured, and the actual end product, i.e. health care not health insurance, is not particularly well-suited to the insurance model in the first place because the incentives of the insurer in terms of delivering actual health care do not align with the needs of the insured for receiving it. The US health care market is broken in a bunch of ways, and many of them are very obvious and fairly well explained by standard models of economics.

What makes the pockets issue interesting is that it’s clearly a market failure, but the reasons for that failure are much more mysterious. The barriers to entry in the clothing market are not that high. The costs of adding pockets are not that high. The opportunity to make a killing on marketing more practical while still stylish (or perhaps more properly, still appropriate to be worn in social contexts where women feel they can’t get away with khakis or whatever) seems very high. And yet no one takes advantage of it? Why not? It must be infuriating, because the only plausible reason is that there’s a bunch of misogynistic traditionalist asshats all making the same offensively stupid design decisions, and there’s nothing you can do about it until some market disruptor comes along and actually offers the product you want.

Okay, thanks for the clarifications, but ISTM that this is just leading to an infinite regress. If women’s clothing design can be modified in a practically infinite number of ways, each of which would appeal to some consumers, then what is the criterion for judging whether or not failure to implement a particular one of those modifications counts as a “market failure”?

What makes you think that just because the outcome of the decision can be described as a simple binary, the factors influencing the decision must be simple?

But do you really think that an aesthetic criterion such as “ruining the lines” can’t also negatively impact sales? Or that “the next guy” might not decide, just as you’ve done, that there are more reliably effective ways to increase profits than via design modification to include pockets?

See, this is where market jargon starts to come unmoored from reality again. An industry that is making a shit-ton of money from manufacturing and marketing clothing gets broad-brushed as “bad capitalists” because they’re not meeting one particular demand that a lot of customers have. By that standard, you can’t show me a successful industry that isn’t chock-full of “bad capitalists”. To me, that just seems to make the concept meaningless.

Moreover, there are some smaller manufacturers that produce dresses with pockets, that are less profitable than some larger manufacturers who don’t. If it’s the latter who are being labeled the “bad capitalists”, again, that just seems to be parting company with real-world criteria for market success.

I am not that convinced you know what you’re talking about. Style and brand are intangible but really, really major elements of fashion sales, and have significant entry barriers. Built-in pockets are indisputably more feasible for some styles of clothing than for others. Deciding which garments pockets can be advantageously added to, and which ones they can’t, is unlikely to be as simple a process as you’re imagining. And it’s also unlikely to be the easiest way of significantly increasing revenue that garment manufacturers can come up with.

Again, this is where the massive style-variety factor that you keep handwaving away comes into play. Manufacturers obviously cannot implement every possible profitable design modification decision, or even more than a relatively small number of them, all at once. If they want to make more money, they’re not limited just to decisions of the type “would it be more profitable to add pockets to Dress X than not to add pockets to Dress X?” They can also ask “would using the same resources instead to introduce trendy new Design Feature Y be more profitable than putting pockets in Dress X?”

I suspect that you vastly underestimate the product and marketing manipulation choices available to the garment industry and the complexity of their decision-making process, in favor of the simplistic narrative that “there’s a bunch of misogynistic traditionalist asshats all making the same offensively stupid design decisions” and voluntarily leaving free money on the table just out of sheer lady-hating cussedness. IANA garment industry executive any more than you are, but my guess would be that they know their business better than you do.

Yeah, it sucks that often it’s a better business decision for an industry in general to leave a widely shared consumer demand unmet than to meet it, but that’s part of the reality of real-world markets.

Now you’re the one saying that women don’t really want pockets, because they’ll choose to purchase pocketless clothing based on aesthetic criteria.

Look, if selling pocketless clothing is more profitable than selling pocketed clothing, then either women don’t really want pockets, don’t want to pay the cost (monetary or aesthetic) for pockets, or else their purchasing decisions don’t reflect their true desires. Other factors being equal (price, quality, etc) it cannot simultaneously be true that women would prefer pockets, but wouldn’t preferentially purchase clothes with pockets.

Cost of production is only an afterthought when it comes to women’s clothing pricing. The Pink Tax is real, and eliminating it could easily cover those cost changes.

I think you have gotten the cause and effect mixed around here.

See: lingerie, women’s… how long did that take?

By the time it gets to the women, they don’t have a choice of a pocketed or non-pocketed version, so how does this reflect their choices? It’s not their aesthetic criteria being reflected there. That’s not how fashion works. Do I need to dig out the cerulean clip?

The only way your binary theory for an extremely complex industry could be tested is if women’s clothes were just like men’s clothes – a few simple choices. Then a manufacturer could offer the exact same model with and without pockets and see which one sold better. Say if the only skirt option was an A-line midi in cotton blend, in gray, tan, or dark green. Much like the polo shirts my husband lives in. Then your pocket theory could be applied.

Instead there are hundreds of options in skirts alone, in design, length, shape, fabric, color. Maybe thousands. Let’s offer all those thousand options with and without pockets, shall we? And then exactly what would we know?

Moderating:

Hey, we’re trying to make this forum a little more friendly to women, and one of the ways to do that is to cut down on "boobs! Har har " posts. Thanks.

I understand what you’re saying, and I agree, but I have to play devil’s advocate for a moment:

Is it possible that what people want is not exactly the same as what they think they want?
Is it possible that what people think they want is not exactly the same as what they would actually buy?

Is there a psychology major in the room?

I want pockets. I want pockets enough that i pay about the price of a pair of jeans to have my jeans pockets enlarged to be useful. The first time, i told the tailor, “like men’s pockets”. Now i measure one that’s perfect and say “X inches deep”.

Every so often, a brand pops up that puts useful pockets in women’s clothing. For a while, ex officia did so. I bought a lot of their clothing, even though it was very expensive. Then … they started dropping the pockets. I haven’t even looked at their website in a while, so i don’t know what they are selling now, but i was bitterly disappointed.

That being said, i assume the stuff without pockets must have outsold the stuff with pockets.

It may just be the tyranny of the majority. If more women want “sleek” than want “useful pockets”, there may always be less profit on the model with pockets. Even if 30% of women prefer it.

I dunno.

I would also question one of the premises here that it seems everyone implicitly agrees with: that if women preferentially bought clothes with pockets, then such clothes would quickly form the majority of clothes on sale.

Markets can often lag demand for a very long time, years or even decades. Especially if the balance towards “want pockets” is mild.
Sure, everyone is trying to make money, but no-one has perfect knowledge of exactly what has sold and why, far from it.

When was the last time you saw any woman posting on a message board “Man, I wish there were more blouses out there with mid-length sleeves”? Or any of these other myriad variations in women’s styles? The pent-up demand for all of the existing variations is relatively low, and yet clothing manufacturers have no difficulty adapting to those low demands. And yet, somehow, the last straw that they can’t possibly meet is a high-demand item like pockets?

The fact that women’s clothing varies in so many ways makes it more incomprehensible, not less, that it doesn’t also vary in this one specific way.

And yes, maybe there are some women, maybe even a significant number, maybe even a majority, who think that the garment with pockets has “ruined lines” or whatever, and won’t buy it based on that. So what? Companies (at least sane companies) don’t care about how many sales they’re not making; they care about how many they are. How many clothing companies are there? If one company got all of the pockets business, and all the other n-1 split the no-pockets business n-1 ways, the pocket company would come out way ahead. And that’s even ignoring the fact that the pocket company could also sell a different line of garments without pockets, and also get a piece of that no-pockets pie.

That might be, but if that’s the basis for their business decision, then it’s short-sighted. Even if their non-pocket items outsold their pocket items, losing the pockets still lost them customers, because when they dropped the pockets, their pocket customers didn’t start buying the non-pocket items: They switched to other brands, because the pockets were the only reason they were with that brand to begin with.

As for the argument that clothing company executives know their business better than we do: Why would you assume that? Business executives, for the most part, don’t get their jobs by being very knowledgeable and wise about their line of business. For the most part, they get their jobs by being related to and otherwise associating with other business executives, often in completely unrelated lines of work. There’s no reason that would lead to any greater expertise than anyone else has. There’s lots of reasons that would lead to businesses continuing to do stupid things because “that’s the way we’ve always done it”.

Except the clothing industry is vastly complex. The people making the decisions are very far away from the people selling the product. The textile factories make things and sell them to middle men who sell them to store buyers. The store buyers have to have clothes to sell, and if none have pockets, they buy the ones without.

And, as the person that started this topic in the other thread, I’m not even talking about fashionable clothes. I am talking about plain, inexpensive black slacks I can wear to work. Not things I “talk to the sales lady” about, but pants I can walk into Target or Old Navy or Marshalls and buy off the rack. Its entirely possible that any one of those stores will have exactly one type of “plain black slacks” each season, and they almost never have pockets (unless they are reallu black khakis, which are business casual). But I have to have work pants. I’m not going to scour 50 stores to find the one example to send an appropriate market signal. I’m just going to sigh (or just wear black denim and dare my boss to object).

In the market I am talking about, I’m sure it is cost. Pockets are surely expensive in terms of labor, and women will buy the ones without because they have to. So why spend the money and cut into your margin?

Indeed and now of course the design houses are changing the “stylysh” men’s clothes cuts so that they only look like they fit right if you carry nothing but the pocket square. What world do they live in?

I recall that when I was a youthf I was flabbergasted when I learned ladies’ clothes did not have real pockets.

i am reminded of an episode of the office where michael scott wore a woman’s suiit. notable for the “no pockets”.

also avery brooks one word answer on a star trek question. “pockets”.

there are companies that have pockets in women’s clothes, svaha and scottevest are 2 that i have used.

I’m really not sure how I could be much clearer that my thesis is that if women will preferentially purchase clothing with pockets over clothing without (at whatever increased cost is required to add pockets), then manufacturers are leaving profit on the table by not providing offerings that satisfy that preference. I’ve already said several times that my best hypothesis for why pockets aren’t available is that said manufacturers are doing exactly that - leaving profit on the table presumably because they erroneously think they know what women want better than women do, or possibly because they care more that their clothes project a certain aesthetic than they do about making more money.

Fortunately for me, we jumped from “business suits” to “khakis okay”. Pro tip: You can get a tailor to add an interior pocket to any suit jacket that has a lining sturdy enough to support the pocket. Slacks are harder – but if they have fake pockets, those can be replaced with functional pockets in most cases.

Why yes, I HAVE spent an inordinate amount of money adding pockets to garments over the years.

I also have a really nice “prairie skirt” in a moderately formal fabric that I had custom-made by a friend who is a professional tailor who specializes in fancy costumes. It has awesome and completely functional pockets, both zipped and open. They don’t show at all, due to the drape of the fabric. I could put a bag lunch in one. (okay, then it might show. The pockets aren’t obvious if I just put my keys and wallet and a cell phone in them.) That was very expensive – his time isn’t cheap, and it’s a lot of fabric. But it’s certainly possible to construct such a thing.

related: I haven’t owned a purse in decades. I do have some back packs and messenger bags suitable for carrying a laptop, pads of paper, and similar.

I’m not saying your wrong, but it’s generally a bad bet to think that outfits like WalMart and Target are leaving profits on the table because they don’t understand that half of their customer base really really wants something simple and obvious. It isn’t that hard for Target to say “put pockets in more of our women’s clothes” to the people who only make clothes for Target, and steal that customer set from WalMart. The fact that they don’t should make you ask why, and the answer probably isn’t “they’re just stupid”.

One other impediment to women’s pockets is that many of the things that women would put in their pockets are sized for purses or bags. For example, my wife’s wallet is pretty large and her keys have several large, decorative fobs that are relatively bulky. Even if she wanted to put them in her pocket, it wouldn’t be the most convenient. Sure, she could get a different wallet and change up her keys, but the effort to do that is an impediment to using pockets. Especially since not all her clothes have pockets and she’d still have to use a purse from time to time. She’d have to really want to use pockets to make the effort.

One thing that manufacturers are doing is adding cell phone pockets to clothes. Many yoga pants have pockets for phones. That is a special-purpose pocket that has wide appeal, so it’s something that’s financially viable. People will make the choice to buy clothing with a pocket to put their cell phone over clothing that doesn’t have that pocket. Perhaps over time, this may lead to additional pockets or more general purpose pockets being added as the functionality becomes desired and preferred.

This is the age of the startup, like never before. Anyone who is confident that there’s significant unfulfilled demand for women’s clothing with usable pockets, and that existing manufacturers are failing to meet that demand, should consider going into business for themselves. And I don’t mean design/sew/package/ship the goods yourself from your basement. Make it a real business venture: bring in partners with fashion/manufacturing/IT/business expertise, maybe even look for VC funding. Contract the manufacturing out to a business that specializes in that kind of work, and work with them to figure out how to tweak your designs to keep costs tolerable. You don’t need to sell through major retailers at first - set up your own web site, get some ads out there on Google, put up some YouTube videos explaining and showcasing your product. If you’re right about the unfulfilled demand and you’ve done a good job of offering quality and stylish clothes for a reasonable price, you’ll soon have major retailers asking for your business, and you can start lighting your cigars with $100 bills.

For inspiration, look to UnTuckit: