Women (over)react to catcalling

[StaudtCJ]

Idle Thoughts:

No, it is not ok to physically assault someone who is just yelling across the street or whatever. Ever. It’s also scary, and not good behavior on the part of the cat-caller.

What the drunk asshole females did the the innocent guy is contemptible, and should be punished by the law. It should not be emulated.

We moved from that topic to the topic of cat-calling, what it means, what it’s for, how common it is, and what to do about it.

It is not ok to hit or hurt someone that hasn’t verbally or physically threatened you. However, sometimes cat-calling, if not treated exactly how the cat-caller wants it to be, escalates into situations where the cat-call-ee is verbally or physically threatened. In these cases, then physical violence followed by escaping the situation is called for. Hopefully, this will also be followed by legal action, but cops don’t take it seriously. “It’s just words.” It’s not just words when they prevent you from getting somewhere, verbally threaten you, or rev their engine and suddenly turn their vehicle in your direction. Those are threats of violence, and should be responded to as such.

[Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake]

@Idle_Thoughts

I’ve read this topic over one and a half times.

And so far I have not seen (at least not yet) an actual, striaght-forward answer to this question from the people who think the girls who beat the (wrong) boy up was a good thing (even if he had been the one to catcall):

Namely, if it’s okay to lash out physically against something you see as a possible threat or something that could lead to something else, then, by the same token, if I’m feeling threatened or scared because someone insults me on the street (be it a man, woman, child), it’s okay to knock the hell out of them while my buddies hold them?
I mean if it’s right for the girls to have done that (in some peoples’ minds in this thread) it should be okay for anyone to do that if someone says to them something they don’t like…right?
ETA: Example: A girl gives me a few catcalls. So it’s okay if I get two buddies to hold her by her arms while I beat her ass?
What I’m hearing by some in this thread is, yes, it’s okay…because it was okay when the girls did it to the guy.

You missed Post #63:

@MeanOldLady

Oh please! This is a 10-foot-high crock of shit. Where is this widespread phenomenon of women harassing men daily on the street, screaming at them, whistling at them, following them in their cars, demanding their phone numbers, name-calling when ignored or rebuffed, making threats, both veiled and unveiled? Where is this town you seem to live in where it is common and somehow accepted that women routinely publicly demean men this way? If this were typical behavior, then yes, I’d be happy if one day a man snapped and just slapped one of the crazy bitches who did this to them.

[mswas]

@SecondJudith

I think the problem is mainly men who treat women as if they aren’t people.

Agreed. But I don’t think that a whistle is a sufficient indicator of such behavior. It can mean that but it can mean something else.

[raindrop]

@mswas

Trust me, a guy is treating you like an object just as often buying a drink as whistling.

This is very true. I’ve also been treated like an object while being asked the time, or while he was holding a door for me.

@mswas

Have you ever considered that maybe the problem is yours? Some women enjoy the attention.

This is actually a very similar logic that many cat-callers use. If she says “no” then she must be the flawed one. If she is opposed to receiving rude and crude comments from strange men, then it must somehow be her own error. After all, other women like it, and of course those other women also speak for all women, (because we’re all the same anyway, right?). Then somehow the guy goes further to conclude that he decides for all women. First he decides the woman to whom he’s giving his attention doesn’t get to vote “no,” and then he decides she should be punished for being so arrogant as to vote in a way that she isn’t allowed. Thus the bullying, intimidation, name-calling, harassing, stalking, spitting, attempts to drive into her, or even sic the dog on her.*

• This is also the logic that 3-year olds use. Tell them no, or deprive them of their toy, they start yelling and get the overwhelming urge to hurt somebody. Certainly not fun when he’s 3, but downright terrifying when he’s an adult.

[Bricker]

@raindrop

This is very true. I’ve also been treated like an object while being asked the time, or while he was holding a door for me.
This is actually a very similar logic that many cat-callers use. If she says “no” then she must be the flawed one. If she is opposed to receiving rude and crude comments from strange men, then it must somehow be her own error. After all, other women like it, and of course those other women also speak for all women, (because we’re all the same anyway, right?). Then somehow the guy goes further to conclude that he decides for all women. First he decides the woman to whom he’s giving his attention doesn’t get to vote “no,” and then he decides she should be punished for being so arrogant as to vote in a way that she isn’t allowed. Thus the bullying, intimidation, name-calling, harassing, stalking, spitting, attempts to drive into her, or even sic the dog on her.*

• This is also the logic that 3-year olds use. Tell them no, or deprive them of their toy, they start yelling and get the overwhelming urge to hurt somebody. Certainly not fun when he’s 3, but downright terrifying when he’s an adult.

So it’s really not so bad to attack one guy based on the behavior of a bunch of other guys… because the cat-calling guys DO speak for all men, after all.

[SecondJudith]

@Bricker

So it’s really not so bad to attack one guy based on the behavior of a bunch of other guys… because the cat-calling guys DO speak for all men, after all.

No one is endorsing the behaviour of the women in the OP, and raindrop doesn’t say anything about all men.

[Ann_Hedonia]

@tdn

Question: To everyone, as in other people in this thread? Or will a guy that bugs you go on to bug someone else more or less right in front of you?

When I was younger I got the unwanted remarks all the time, now that I’m older, not so much ( and aoiut half the time it turns out to be someone I know trying to pull my chain.)

I do rememeber once hearing some guy tell me he’d like to climb my legs or some such nonsense…I didn’t turn around but another woman walking nearby did and then the guy said to her " Not you, you’re fat" which was totally cruel.

[MeanOldLady]

@StaudtCJ

Idle Thoughts:

No, it is not ok to physically assault someone who is just yelling across the street or whatever. Ever. It’s also scary, and not good behavior on the part of the cat-caller.

What the drunk asshole females did the the innocent guy is contemptible, and should be punished by the law. It should not be emulated.

We moved from that topic to the topic of cat-calling, what it means, what it’s for, how common it is, and what to do about it.

This, Idle Thoughts. Have you read the thread yet?

@raindrop

This is actually a very similar logic that many cat-callers use. If she says “no” then she must be the flawed one. If she is opposed to receiving rude and crude comments from strange men, then it must somehow be her own error.

You would not believe how many times I’m told I have an attitude because I ignore or reject someone. There’s nothing wrong with me because you heckled and followed a woman you’ve never met for a block and a half. I suppose there are some women who think it’s cute, as in, “Oh my, I feel so validated that this strange man is being rude to me. This must mean I’m attractive! Yay, I’m so glad the boys think I’m pretty.” And the rest of us find it to be bullshit. First, this is not a dog show, people, so learn to approach me like a human being, or shut yer yap. Second, I’m glad to see this group of ladies likes to flatter themselves into thinking this behavior is somehow complimentary, but I would say it has a lot more to do with the guy’s attitude of what acceptable behavior toward women is than it does how cute you are. They do it to everyone.

@Bricker

So it’s really not so bad to attack one guy based on the behavior of a bunch of other guys… because the cat-calling guys DO speak for all men, after all.

Bricker, pay attention, will ya? Long answer to your question: Never mind, I’m not going to repeat the whole thread. Short answer: I’d say catcalling guys speak for catcalling guys. And catcalling guys are assholes.

[tdn]

@Shot_From_Guns

1.) It may be well-intentioned, but it’s still treating the woman like a piece of meat. It’s still demanding that she be flattered by your being attracted to her.

2.) I guaran-fucking-tee, your father has no way to wolf-whistle at me that would “make me feel great.” And I bet that at least some of the women who he made “feel great” weren’t actually flattered, but played along anyway, because that’s how women are taught to react.

Maybe I should clarify. He doesn’t whistle at complete strangers on the street. He’ll whistle at women he knows who just got really dressed up to go out. Maybe my sister, maybe my aunt, maybe a neighbor, mostly my mother. This is little different than when I got dressed up slicker than ice for a wedding last year, and mom and sis said “Wow, hubba hubba!”

Not every such comment means “I want to have sex with you.” (At least I hope not!)

And yes, it is possible to appreciate the way a woman looks and still have no desire to sleep with her. To think that all men have olny one motivation in life, and a devious and skeevy one at that, is really disrespectful.

[tdn]

@Vihaga

Well, that does add insult to, well, insult. How often do you see someone whistle at anyone they see as their equal?

I have no idea what that has to do with the bit you quoted, but I find it very interesting.

When Freudian Slit and DianaG talk about this, I get a strong sense that they are very centered and confident, and see things from a frame of strength. When some others of you talk about it, the automatic response (deeper than “those guys are jerks”) is the assumption that they’re trying to control you, humiliate you, or as you just said, see you as less than an equal.

One has to wonder if that’s the way you see yourselves. Do you often feel less than equal? Not to armchair psychologize or anything, but I’m seeing a definite pattern of “pity me the poor victim” in a lot of posts here.

Excuse me while I put on my asbestos underwear. I have a feeling I’m going to get mightily flamed for this.

[SecondJudith]

I don’t think it’s inherently devious and skeevy to want to sleep with people. It’s not devious and skeevy to want to sleep with strangers you see in public.

What is devious and skeevy is communicating that desire to those strangers in public, which is what a catcall (on the surface) does.

[MeanOldLady]

@tdn

I have no idea what that has to do with the bit you quoted, but I find it very interesting.

When Freudian Slit and DianaG talk about this, I get a strong sense that they are very centered and confident, and see things from a frame of strength. When some others of you talk about it, the automatic response (deeper than “those guys are jerks”) is the assumption that they’re trying to control you, humiliate you, or as you just said, see you as less than an equal.

One has to wonder if that’s the way you see yourselves. Do you often feel less than equal? Not to armchair psychologize or anything, but I’m seeing a definite pattern of “pity me the poor victim” in a lot of posts here.

Excuse me while I put on my asbestos underwear. I have a feeling I’m going to get mightily flamed for this.

Not so much flamed as I’ll point out this makes absolutely no sense. When you have to deal with someone who is a dick, do you think worse of yourself, or worse of the person who’s a dick? Me perceiving other people as assholes for behaving assholishly has nothing to do with my confidence level. Here’s the report card:

Me: A+
Them: F-

And to be frank, I think getting a self-esteem boost from sleazebags on the street is a sign of low confidence, but it’s possible I don’t know what I’m talking about.

[SecondJudith]

@tdn

When Freudian Slit and DianaG talk about this, I get a strong sense that they are very centered and confident, and see things from a frame of strength. When some others of you talk about it, the automatic response (deeper than “those guys are jerks”) is the assumption that they’re trying to control you, humiliate you, or as you just said, see you as less than an equal.

One has to wonder if that’s the way you see yourselves. Do you often feel less than equal? Not to armchair psychologize or anything, but I’m seeing a definite pattern of “pity me the poor victim” in a lot of posts here.

Oh! I’ll help field this one.

Women in the US don’t have to “feel” like helpless victims to know that statistically speaking, we are at a very high risk of sexual assault. 1 in 6 (or 1 in 4, depending on who you ask) American women have been seriously sexually assaulted – not harassed, but physically assaulted, as in “…and battery”.

How I, personally, feel about whistles and street harassment doesn’t change that fact.

I have to be careful, not because I like feeling like a victim, but because I have no way of knowing what the street harasser will do. He has already proven that he either doesn’t care or doesn’t know how to act appropriately toward strangers in public, and that he is sexually aggressive.

Whether I feel flattered, bored or irritated by his behavior, he has identified himself as someone with the traits of a sexual assailant. I can’t trust him to behave safely, because I don’t know how far those traits go with him.

Personally, I would consider myself happy, confident and almost completely satisfied with my life. Little cartoon birds could settle around me every morning as I brushed my hair, and it wouldn’t change the fact that man-on-woman sexual assault is epidemic and I have to mistrust every man who shows those traits. Not hate, or fear, but mistrust. And the more inappropriately and sexually aggressive the man acts, the more cause I have to mistrust him.

So, I don’t think it’s “Do I see myself as a victim?” but “Do I see inappropriately sexually aggressive men as a threat?”

And until we as a society fix those sexual assault statistics, the answer is yes.

[tdn]

Yes, I get that it’s a dangerous world out there, and I could be absolutely wrong about my assumption. If you guys otherwise feel great about yourselves, then fantastic. I really honestly hope that you do.

But I’m seeing a few clues that say otherwise. Many posts back I suggested changing one’s demeanor. Someone (I can’t remember who, and I’m far to lazy to go searching, especially when the board is acting up) responded with “Why should I have to smile to appease those assholes?” The thing is, I never suggested appeasement at all. I was talking about empowerment. To me that sounds like staying in a victim role, and not even seeing any other options.

I’m not saying that jerks aren’t jerks. But I’m wondering if your constantly being victimized might be a reflection of how you see your role in the world.

[MeanOldLady]

@tdn

Someone (I can’t remember who, and I’m far to lazy to go searching, especially when the board is acting up) responded with “Why should I have to smile to appease those assholes?” The thing is, I never suggested appeasement at all. I was talking about empowerment. To me that sounds like staying in a victim role, and not even seeing any other options.

Pssht, how are you empowering yourself by modifying your behavior so that other people won’t harass you? I’m not modifying shit. I’m going to do whatever I want because it’s my life, and there will be no alterations because some assholes can’t control themselves. I will wear tank tops in the summer (It’s fucking hot!), I will not walk around smiling for no reason because you think pretty girls should smile, and I’m not going to blush and giggle and feel all flattered because you’re pestering me. Fuck that noise. Fuck it running.

[SecondJudith]

How does that make sense? I love my demeanor, that’s why I’m not changing it! Changing means the assholes win, because they’ve made me feel there’s something wrong with myself I have to “fix”.

Also, keep in mind that they don’t care what you are wearing. They do it anyway. There is nothing you can change about yourself, other than “not being a woman anymore”, to fully deter men who harass women in puublic.

[DianaG]

@SecondJudith

1 in 6 (or 1 in 4, depending on who you ask) American women have been seriously sexually assaulted – not harassed, but physically assaulted, as in “…and battery”.

Leaving aside that you’re quoting a hotly contested statistic, and that “sexual assault” generally covers everything from rape to subway grinders to flashing, you keep leaving out that part where “73% of rape victims know their assailant”.

I am not defending catcalling. I’m just keeping it in perspective. Random whistles, hoots, and comments on the street are not what we need to be worried about.

[Vihaga]

@tdn

The thing is, I never suggested appeasement at all. I was talking about empowerment. To me that sounds like staying in a victim role, and not even seeing any other options.

Appeasement isn’t empowerment, and appeasement is what women are taught to do. They’re taught not to make a fuss no matter how asinine or disrespectful someone is, and it gets them into trouble. If we’re to strive toward equality, we can’t be complacent about this kind of thing. How exactly would being flattered (rather than thinking he’s an asshole) when someone harrasses me make me more self-confident?
The “other options” that men have aren’t available to us. I’m not defending what these women did, as violence isn’t much of an answer to things, but it seems to be how men (mostly) escape this problem. If I white guy followed a black guy down the street hurling racial (rather than sexual) epithets at him, and he got his ass kicked for his trouble, how sympathetic would you be? What if a guy followed another guy down the street telling how much he loved his ass? It has nothing to do with “gay panic,” but that men have a basic expectation that they won’t be harassed as they go about their day, and they have the means to enforce that outside of the legal system, which has no interest in it. Do you really think it’s right that women don’t have that, and that if they complain about it, it’s wallowing in victimhood? Why shouldn’t equality mean that women should have the same expectation of being left alone that men have?
How do you suggest we make it clear that the behavior is unacceptable (which it is) without putting ourselves in danger?

[tdn]

@MeanOldLady

Pssht, how are you empowering yourself by modifying your behavior so that other people won’t harass you?.

You just answered your own question.

I will not walk around smiling for no reason because you think pretty girls should smile, and I’m not going to blush and giggle and feel all flattered because you’re pestering me.

I never suggested that. Why did you?

BTW, I love your attitude of doing whatever the hell you want. Good for you! But if you don’t like the way people are treating you, why are you so resistant to at least exploring options that might change that?

[tdn]

@SecondJudith

How does that make sense? I love my demeanor, that’s why I’m not changing it! Changing means the assholes win, because they’ve made me feel there’s something wrong with myself I have to “fix”.

I’m glad that you love your demeanor. Great! But changing it to better control your environment does not mean that there’s anything wrong with you. If someone tells me to sit up straight, does that mean I have some basic flaw in my personality? Does that mean that someone else “won”? No! Why would you even think that? It just means that I can change one tiny thing to project a bit more power and respect.