Yes, this is more of less the crux of what we’ve been saying all this time.
So, let’s have it, your best ideas.
Every woman has tried what her mother taught her, just ignore them, if you acknowledge them you’re only encouraging them! (Wha’s matter bitch, you think you’re too good for us?)
Smile, nod, wave? Sure, leading them on can only help, right? (Yeah, you - wanna suck my dick?)
Call them out? One small women facing even two men, yeah right. ( I see your lips moving, why aren’t you sucking my dick?)
Be the aggressor, get all up in their business? (Take one more step and I’ll cut you, bitch!)
Each of these phrases is, of course, followed by the hearty laughter of the gang/crew. (Showed that bitch!)
So, please, do tell, lay out your unique strategy that will calm the waters and restore peace to the valley.
Because we’d all like nothing more.
I’d like to respond more to this statement. And some of this is also in response to tdn’s post #680…
I was once in the Navy, an organization notorious for sexual abuse of women. But I lucked out because I was stationed at a base that implemented an awareness program that stayed on top of sexual harassment. All women were repeatedly encouraged to “complain” promptly and loudly at the slightest hint of abuse. We were told how to define abusive behavior, and told not to dismiss even the smallest incidents. The men attended monthly seminars given to inform them of the proper way to regard and treat women. Even those men who hadn’t done anything abusive had to attend these seminars. Women also had monthly “have you been abused?” meetings to make sure we were still all on track. Any men who did abuse women were immediately compelled to cease doing so, and had to take even more sensitivity training. Follow-up was also provided for abused women who were asked very specific questions about subsequent behavior of the abuser as well as any others.
The result was that this base became a zero tolerance zone of sexual harassment. Eventually all of us women felt completely UNharassed, and the entire atmosphere of the base was of respect for both genders. Women knew that if we had any problems whatsoever we had a means to report and resolve them, that we would be supported, not ignored, not disregarded, and certainly not criticized for perceiving ourselves as victims. It was empowering to us women, not victimizing. And all the men knew that if they stepped out of line that the women were encouraged to report them. We all knew the rules and acceptable standards of behavior on both sides.
The other result was that a man who had abused me prior to the implementation of this program, a man I had never reported (because his bad behavior had ceased prior to the program), later came to me offering a profuse apology. After sitting through a few sessions he came to realize that he had previously been an idiot, and was sincerely sorry for his previous antics. Then later during another incident of abuse that happened off-base, this same guy came to my aid, for which I was very grateful. He eventually became one of my closest friends.
If any of you really want to help women, there are much better ways than being condescending and offering your so-called advice. If you really want to “help” us, I’d suggest you get informed, get sensitized, challenge the boorish men yourself in whatever way you can manage. Also, be a source of support for women, again as much as you can personally manage to do so. If you don’t know how to do that Jimmy Chitwood’s posts provide a few very excellent examples. Just don’t lecture to us or “help” us as if you know more about it than we do.
My advice was only meant for those who wanted it, not those who are/have already done it…otherwise, point taken.
Agreed, that was never my intent. Again, it was meant for those who were passive about it or was seeking help/advice from me (and my wife). Maybe some posters should have re-read my last post before they projected their own personal feelings over the feelings of the employees that we assisted (remember, the ones that asked for advice?) at that point in time.
That’s amazing (and encouraging) raindrop.
I think the problem with offering advice to women on how they can modify their behavior to avoid harassment is that it ignores the fact that most if not all women are already taught from girlhood how to avoid being a victim – changing up the route they jog or take home, staying in well-lit areas, sitting next to nice old ladies on the bus, dressing a certain way, walking home with their hand on their phone or their keys (but not taking them out too early lest someone try to follow them inside), watching how much they drink and never leaving it unattended, wearing comfortable footwear if they might have to run, avoiding listening to headphones while walking alone, yelling ‘Fire!’ instead of ‘Rape!’, etc. Not that any of these help in the case of verbal harassment.
Was I the only one who didn’t get this advice? Not that my parents are often pretty paranoid–I think they still hate the idea of me taking the subway late at night. But I never got told any of that stuff. I’ve never altered my route home or only sat next to nice old ladies on the bus or taken out my keys. Then again, I’ve never really lived in an “unsafe” area.
Dunno elbows, ignoring them and going on with my life without missing a step seems to work the best. And I don’t even get responses… at least not that I can hear them.
That is not to say that the most obnoxious ones won’t stop, but like I mentioned in the other similar thread, those that heckle and harass are not necessarily the same ones who just whistle or say non-lewd comments. And like the other thread has demonstrated, while some women seem unfortunate enough to get the nasty encounters more often, others have barely got them in their whole lives (some of which are many years older than me).
And I find it funny that people here mention high confidence as setting yourself for being open to comments… In my experience, at least, it was the opposite. I’m confident enough that I don’t notice, and that which I do, won’t bother me like it did when I had way less confidence as a teenager.
I got some of that advice not through my parents but through the media and the news.
What my parents did teach me was the stuff about staying in well-lit areas, but since I grew up in an unsafe place, that was common sense to me, plus I hate walking in darkness. More to do with robbery and thiefs than with sexuality.
I never got the “change your dress/shoes/routes” spiel.
So, what?
Suck it up?
Oh, and we don’t want to hear about it, you whiny victims!
That’s all you got? And it’s supposed to somehow outweigh speaking openly about it and trying to educate men into growing up/evolving?
Tell me again, which one is the assertive response and which one is the victimy one?
Ever been spit on? Basically, that’s what happened here. And yes, I did give two ASSERTIVE warnings that fell on deaf ears. Does that sound familiar to you when you ask some to stop some certain behavior? Being spit upon in a classroom full of your peers is VERY humiliating, or do you think that it was something trivial for me to endure for the rest of the class, maybe because I was asking for it? Should I have reported it to the teacher, hopefully so she could look for it the next time it happened? Just wait till the end of class after I’m finished with my spit shower, and ask her to remember to keep an eye on us for the rest of the school year? I would rather have ANOTHER 8 years of lunches chucked up on the rooftop before taking another minute of saliva showers, wouldn’t you? Do you think 8 years of telling the same bully to stop is enough, or should I remain passive until I got my diploma?
No…that was enough. And at the ripe old age of 15, I stood up for myself. Nothing more, nothing less.
How can you not see this is nothing like that?
It is not children bullying children already.
You were in a school where there were people you could turn to. It’s highly unlikely you’d have been sexually assaulted as a result of your assertiveness.
Apples and oranges, stop looking at this through the filter of your experience which was schoolyard bullying as a child.
Giving advice to do something that we have already stated doesn’t work does, in fact, presuppose that we’re morons. Or just plain incompetent. (I’ve been talking about Yeticus Rex’s advice, btw.)
No worries–it happens. 
When have we ever said this? I think life in general is just fine and dandy, and that most guys aren’t massively sexist assholes. I just think the subset that **do **harass women should face some kind of accountability, because currently there is none, which leaves women with the equally unpleasant choices to simply allow the harassment or take disproportionate violent action against it.
We’re **fine **coping with it. Nobody in this thread sits at home at night crying 'cause some guy harassed her on the street. We’re trying to **stop **it from happening.
This was an awesome post–and a great example of the only way to actually stop harassment (i.e., there has to be accountability).
Who in this thread asked for advice? Anybody? AFAIK, everything the men in this thread have offered has been unsolicited. And to offer unsolicited advice that suggests things that people have already said they’re doing is (wait for it) condescention.
You were assertive, and the bully didn’t stop. The bully didn’t stop **until **you made a very real threat of physical violence. And yet, you continue to tell the women **here **who tell **you **that being assertive doesn’t work that all **they **need to do is be assertive. Do you see why I’m saying you gave a very poor example? And why that’s so patronizing?
I just got catcalled standing in my driveway after checking the mail. My back was to the road, and the guys slowed down to shout “Whooooo!” at me. I’m 8 months pregnant. I hope they felt weird when I turned around.
Maybe they thought you were knocked up by Ric Flair.
I know who he is but I still don’t get the joke…
Yeah, it really wasn’t that kind of whooo. More like “Whooo, baby, you hot!” not “I’m doing my best imitation of a coyote at midnight.”
OK…There’s quite a few things to clarify here regarding this thread:
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Nobody here is a moron. If I came off as condescending, I really did not mean to. If I stated something obvious regarding how posters have dealt with cat-callers over the years and insist that it wasn’t enough, I withdraw those comments. Please accept my apologies.
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I really do care and do listen, especially to the woman I married, my mom, my aunts, my grandmother, sister-in-laws, and our women employees, and now (hopefully) you lady dopers. Sometimes, a few of us guys get stuck in a “fix it” mode rather than “just listen” mode. Guilty as charged.
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I meant what I posted earlier regarding that I will be more alert and responsive towards cat-callers because this thread taught me how offensive and degrading it is. I do want to be one less intimidating guy towards women.
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Personal experiences do not define the overall behavior of the general populace, and generalizations do not not necessarily predict personal experiences, so I withdraw my personal experiences for defining how the general populace should act, and I will respectfully observe the experiences of others in this thread as their own personal experiences, free from judgment.
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I think I will lurk this thread from here on out. Again, my apologies.
As long as you keep actually considering input as you have been, no need to lurk.
I don’t know, do you consider it sexism to call another woman a whore multiple times (these links don’t cover all the instances, but are just a sampling), and a retarded whore at that, as well as a slut simply because you dislike her and disagree with her? I do. I despise curlcoat every bit as much as you do, but you’ve been crying sexism this entire thread, yet engaging in what I consider to be sexist behavior against another woman in another thread because she pissed you off. Thought it deserved a mention, for context, you know. I hate it when men do this, call women sluts and whores as a way of shaming them or shutting them up in an argument. I guess some women aren’t above this tactic either, and it’s harassment too. It’s just not catcalling, so it’s OK with Shot From Guns.