Whom do you trust, then?
Really? All the hundreds of studies, over decades, confirming and reconfirming the same conclusions again and again - all those are unreliable simply because they don’t confirm your bias? Interesting statement.
To be clear, rapists predominantly plan to have sex with a particular woman. Date rapists plan to have sex with her; they do not necessarily (at least, not according to this article) plan to rape her.
It seems to me that a fair number of men see women as Other, and that women don’t have a right to sexual self-determination. When such a man rapes a woman, he’s not trying to prove his superiority over the woman; he assumes that superiority, and he uses her for sexual fulfillment.
It’s a lousy, horrifying thing to do–but it’s not about power (since he’s not really worried about his power-superiority). It’s about fulfillment of a sexual drive, with no concern for the consequences of fulfilling that drive.
Again, a thief that steals a car might do it in part to show that he’s better than those rich motherfuckers who buy a BMW; but more likely, he’s doing it to get a car, and he’s not worried about the consequences of the carjacking on its victim. Would you say that theft is about power? What if there’s a study showing that carjackers tend to be hostile toward people in business suits?
I agree with Stephen Pinker, that the dogmatic acceptance that rape is about power is dangerous. If it’s accepted as dogma and it’s wrong, it prevents us from addressing the crime effectively.
Of course, if it’s right, then we should treat it as such. But too many people seem to take it as a given, and the research that i’ve read doesn’t support that conclusion.
Daniel
What would we do differently, then, if it’s not about power and is about lust? And how is treating it one way putting people in danger?
I only meant that power is involved in the sexual act, to some degree, even outside of ‘traditional’ dom-sub relationships. It isn’t necessarily about someone lording it over someone else.
From maggenpye’s link:
Daniel
It may change how we do prevention programs. If we see that rape is about sex for some guys, this means what we need to do is to acknowledge their sexual feelings and then either build up an empathy toward women among this group, or build up such a fear of being called a rapist, and an understanding of what rape is, that they’d never do it.
If we think of rape as all about power, then guys who aren’t on power trips may not realize that what they’re doing constitutes rape. Indeed, from the passage above, it sounds like many sexual offenders in treatment still don’t get it.
I think we need to address it culturally, and it needs to start with addressing teenaged boys, getting them to understand not just the definition of rape but why it’s so traumatic. I suspect many of them haven’t stopped to consider that an act they’d find pleasurable wouldn’t be pleasurable for their victim. If they’re not in it for the power game, but rather for the sexual pleasure, then we need to teach them differently.
Daniel
Please cite the research you’ve found.
The assumption of power doesn’t negate it as a factor. The date rapist wants sex and disregards the woman’s right to say no. He rapes her because he can - because she is powerless to stop him. That* is* about power. It’s the same mentality as the bullies who push smaller kids in lockers or shove their heads down toilets - the satisfaction is in being powerful. Doing whatever you want because your victim can’t stop you.
Your statement about him not trying to *prove *his superiority because he already *assumes *superiority confirms this - and fits in with research. That he has the right to dominate and control a woman because she is not as *powerful *as him.
Some bullies use rape as a tool of domination, others use their fists, insults , corporate superiority, or money, or fame, or social status) to belittle and cause harm. It’s always about power.
What are you talking about? I quoted from the same paper you cited, and threw in my agreement with Stephen Pinker’s argument in The Blank Slate.
Of course it doesn’t; I hope I’ve never said it wasn’t a factor. I just think that, in many cases of date rape, it’s not the primary factor, any more than it’s the primary factor in most carjackings.
No, it’s not the same thing as bullies who push smaller kids in lockers; it’s the same thing as bullies who take smaller kids’ lunch money, or steal their toys, or make them do the bully’s homework. The rapists do it not to hurt the victim nor to prove their superiority over the victim, but to satisfy their own desires, just as the bullies who take lunch money or toys do it not to hurt the victim but to satisfy their own desires.
Yes, some cases of rape are done to prove superiority; again, I’m not denying that. What I AM denying is that this is the primary, or even highly significant, motive for many acquaintance rapes.
Yes, but sometimes it’s only about power. A bully who pushes a kid into a locker gains nothing out of it except for pleasure at his own superiority and at another person’s suffering. A bully who steals a toy gains something else out of it, and it’s likely that this gain is the reason for the bullying.
Do you see the difference?
Daniel
But isn’t that what we’d do even if it was about power? Try to teach them to have empathy with their victims, make them see it’s not all about what they want, etc.?
From your post:
I was thoroughly confused by that. If 72, 73 and 74 are true, doesn’t that suggest rape isn’t about power? Since, apparently, rapists don’t get excited by images involving power and control, but rather, simply by plain vanilla sex? Doesn’t that fail to suggest that power or control is a motivating factor in rape? (Nor does it seem to me to succeed in suggesting that rape is simply all about sex and not about power at all. The three cites, in other words, seem completely irrelevant to me.)
-FrL-
Not necessarily: we might instead spend more of our energy trying to empower the potential victims than we spend trying to build that empathy among the potential rapists.
Daniel
I don’t think that would help at all. If it doesn’t occur to someone that raping someone isn’t a very nice experience, then that isn’t something you can teach. Yes, we do need to address it culturally, but to me that means we teach that no always means no, that drunkenness is not a yes, that the victim will never be blamed or humiliated. But most importantly, set the cultural expectation that rape accusations will always be thoroughly investigated, vigorously prosecuted, and never bargained down. 10-20 years, with mandatory minimum of 10, and no possibility of parole. That is the cultural attitude that needs to be communicated with regard to rape, assault, and murder.
Why do you think that’s true? Certainly the opposite is true–armies that have employed rape as a tactic have deliberately desensitized troops to the appalling nature of rape. Why wouldn’t we be able to sensitize teenagers to its appalling nature, especially in the case of acquaintance rape, those rapes whose features are so ambiguous that sometimes even the victims don’t realize what’s happened constitutes rape?
At any rate, I’m not coming out of left field here; as I quoted above, some sociologists who study rape comprise the backbone of my argument. “Make no mistake,” writes Diana Scully, “for some men, rape is sex – in fact, for them, sex is rape. The continued rejection of this possibility, threatening though it may be, is counterproductive to understanding the social causes of sexual violence.”
Daniel
If images of consensual sex provide the same arousal levels in rapists and non-rapists, then the rapists must be getting something different (or more) from rape than sexual fulfillment, otherwise they’d be satisfied with consensual sex and have no need to rape. Many rapists are in consenting sexual relationships while also committing rape.
Edit: Left Hand of Dorkness - I was referring to post 103 where you are talking about date rape. Later in post 106, you’re quoting research on convicted serial rapists to back your position on the motivations of date rapists. They aren’t the same thing.
It’s the victim’s fault for not being empowered?
Men are generally stronger than women - can we teach women to overcome biology? What about the 22% (checking this fact) of victims that are under 12 years old - steroids?
That’s why this is such a complicated issue - there’s the perceived power (might is right - if the guy wants sex, he should get it because his desires outweigh the victim’s rights) and there is physical power, the ability to overpower the victim.
Ha, ha! Winky! It makes it FUNNY when you put words in my mouth!
Let me be clear. T’ain’t funny.
On the contrary: the anti-rape movement already HAS put a lot of energy into empowering rape survivors. Given that there’s a limited amount of energy, I wonder whether that energy might better be put toward persuading potential rapists not to rape. I am suggesting that the focus on power has led to a drive to empower victims, not that a focus on the sexual motive would lead to such a drive.
I never ever ever said that it’s the victim’s fault for not being empowered. Did you?
Daniel
This is marginally true in social settings like bars. But higher probability does not connote a share of responsibility.
It’s probably not usefully true in situations where a rapist is attacking someone on the street. In those cases they are probably just looking for vulnerability.
What facilititates wartime rape isn’t “desensitization”, whatever that is supposed to be. It’s training them that normal social rules no longer apply, and that rape is now a weapon rather than a crime. The damage that rape does is psychological; you can’t show it to someone, and there’s no way you can sensitize someone who doesn’t already get it. Since men seem to become less likely to rape as they get older, the best sensitization exercise would be a nice long jail sentence until they outgrow the tendency to gratify themselves in ways that hurt others.
Apologies for the offense - but when you say:
This places the onus of responsibility on the victim. As I pointed out - this is not practical for most victims as they will still be physically weaker than their attacker.
But later you say;
This places the onus of responsibility on the rapist.
Obviously you didn’t mean the first - since you’ve reversed your position. Again, I apologise for taking your first statement as a reflection of your actual opinion.