Plus, some people, myself included, mostly shop at thrift stores. We do good to find stuff in our size that’s in decent condition, let alone looking for specific criteria to meet. I mean, hello? Thirty dollars for a top alone, just to do the job of helping some jackass to avert his eyes. I’m sorry, but he’s an adult and can take care of that himself. :dubious:
And although I pretty much live in t-shirts and have never liked showing cleavage, why are women expected to dress like nuns according to a few? Looking at those shirts was hilarious. I actually liked the first (if I don’t mind my arms being exposed), but the second (despite being cute in a Lolita sort of way – unless, heh, that’s what you’re hoping for I guess) looks like it would’ve been fine on a 30s era school marm. The latter is hideous and, as noted above, would provide the dreaded button gap. Which is why I haven’t worn anything like that in decades.
As stated above, it depends on the particular environment. In a big business atmosphere, I don’t care about a little cleavage, but a woman who dresses like she’s trying to sleep her way up the ladder is going to be stigmatized, whether she hears about it or not. Actually, I’d probably have a problem with that even in a business-casual place. Bottom line, work is about work, not dating, and people (including women) should dress appropriately.
But that’s just restating the question. What is appropriate? If you are a busty woman, it’s quite possible to have a top that doesn’t reveal cleavage when you are standing up straight and looking in a mirror, but that does 'offer a glimpse" to a taller person standing fairly close to you, or to someone standing behind you while you are seated, or when you bend over for whatever reason. Is that inappropriate?
Being a taller person myself, I’m well aware of that particular issue. Obviously you don’t have to cover yourself up like a woman in a fundamentalist Muslim country. Shit happens, and nobody’s going to fault you because you had to pick up a sheet of paper or someone you were talking to happened to be much taller than you. But then that’s why we’re adults, and should (theoretically) know the difference. Tasteful doesn’t mean covered up like a mummy.
And I didn’t restate the question. There’s a line, and it’s generally pretty clear when it’s being crossed.
Perhaps it will be on what clothing is appropriate for men to wear. If I’m an insurance advisor, is a muscle vest OK?
There are always going to be limits in the working environment, I don’t see what’s inherently sexist about it.
That the subject is raised vastly more often with respect to women, for one thing. That some men feel entitled to ascribe a range of intentions to women by their clothing, and to fault the women for their own distraction.
I’ve never heard of women blaming men for dressing for “dating” at work, or for trying to sleep their way up the ladder, for example. It’s more likely that women will be found critiquing other women for the perceived responses of men! If that’s not a sexist unbalance, I don’t know what would be.
So, you have no female customers? Do those successful saleswomen flash their assets–or are they just good at their jobs?
Not that I think women need to dress like nuns at work. But someone giving “a small taste of the goods” might come across as a dumb bimbo. Even if she isn’t.
I’m reasonably sure that there exist jobs in which a woman who refuses to show cleavage will not make any inroads…
Even without going there, it will vary by industry, company and location. But so will the dress code and/or customs for men. One of my coworkers was coming from one of those American companies which insist in exporting American dress codes and it took him several weeks to understand that jeans are ok, suits are also ok, so long as what you’re wearing would count as “overdressed” at the pool and “underdressed” at an average wedding it’s ok, and there is no such thing as casual Fridays because every day is casual.
There’s a difference between the circumstance that Dangerosa describes and someone who is falling out of a top and there are times and places.
Are there clothing choices that are inappropriate for certain work circumstances?
Yes. Of course. Work clothing reflects on the company you are working for and is an expression of what you want your professional image to be. Duh.
My goofy ties are appropriate for being a pediatrician but would be out of place if I was a mortician. A female pediatrician might wear a plunging neck line out to a party but would not as part of her professional look. A muscular male wearing a tight T-shirt and tight jeans is fine in some jobs or at a bar and inappropriate in others.
“Plunging neckline” is a good description of what I think would be inappropriate for any job I’ve ever had. Where “not being able to see a hint of cleavage from any angle” is impossible for me to dress to without wearing turtlenecks.
But there is a lot of room between turtleneck and plunge. The shirt I’m wearing now, that I’ll wear to church has no cleavage straight on. But if I’m sitting and you are standing, you can see shadow. Its a shallow v neck. And by shallow - you still have six inches between the bottom of the v on the shirt and the maximum girth of my chest.
(I am wearing a sports bra - which does squish the girls together into a uni-boob - and sort of creates maximum cleavage - not in a flattering way. It also has more coverage than a German beach volleyball uniform by itself and no underwire, which is why I’m wearing it.)
FWIW I think that the imbalance is more a result of the lesser work fashion freedom for men. There are pretty narrow expectations for male work attire. In a work environment that allows women many choices often a man is limited to button down shirt tie and no less dressy than khakis if that. And often limited choices on how colorful of a shirt or wild of a tie! Socially as well. Most formal means tux for men but wide selection for women. Even less extreme is the narrow range of suits compared to the wide range of acceptable for women. Men stray out of bounds less because the bounds are fairly simple more rigid and well established. Flattering or not.
Yes. In formal business attire men can’t show any skin except their hands and above the collar. I don’t think there’s anything wrong per se with making the same requirements for women, but it would actually look odd when societal norms have men and women dressed distinctively differently. The legitimate purposes for office dress codes are to avoid distractions and not to offend the public or business clientele, and since that leaves the standard in the eye of the beholder the business establishing a dress code is forced to make judgement calls, unfortunately calls that have no consistent basis and can easily turn out to be someone’s personal preference.
It would be nice to have some websites showing examples of allowable clothing for different standards that could be set, at least a business could pick one of the many such styles to base their dress code on, but there will be a lot of them, and clothing styles vary by location, industry, and sometimes short time spans. And then you’d still need fair interpretation of those standards.
The worst part here is that while men and women are often supposed to appear attractive, for women that will generally include some element of sexuality. For men it means making the suit look attractive, often hiding the body underneath, for women it’s more about exposing and/or highlighting the body.
The solution, though unlikely to happen, is that people will realize that clothes do not make the man or woman. But if that consideration came naturally to people we wouldn’t have this problem in the first place.
Then complain about the OP raising it as a thread.
But what you said was you were surprised by the responses. Why?
There are obviously limits on what is considered appropriate for men and women to wear in a work setting.
For the former I don’t think anyone has said that in this thread.
For the latter, it’s an important distinction between being responsible for others’ reactions and being responsible for what one wears.
Obviously an individual does not choose to make men like boobs nor individually set society’s current acceptance of how much skin can be shown. But you have to be aware of and react to such a reality. I can’t show up for work in a mankini.
The gender dichotomy in the poll results so far are interesting.
At least right now, “cleavage is never appropriate/professional” is tied for first with “it depends …” among women answering, while that same “cleavage is never appropriate/professional” is solidly last among men answering.
Meanwhile last place for women by far is “a woman can be appropriate/professional no matter how much she shows” which men answer second most, after “showing a little cleavage is usually ok.”
Huh. Men are generally thinking some cleavage showing is fine and many think that women should shows as much as they want. Anywhere anytime. It’s fine! In the name of not being sexist, of course. Who’d have guessed?
