Work and work culture around the world

(I’m thinking mostly of white collar work because that’s what I’m familiar with, but insight into blue collar work and service sector work is appreciated as well.)

As an American, I’m greatly conscious of the…shortcomings of working in this country in terms of benefits and culture for the average employee. I hear a lot of comparisons to other countries in this regard, usually in the “we could do better” sense, but also occasionally in “it could be worse.” So it’d got me thinking about a few questions…

  • Is Western Europe the best place in the world to work? I hear all the time about super strong worker protection laws and how nobody bats an eye if you take a year of paid sick leave and months worth of vacation. I realize it varies by country, but overall it sounds pretty sweet to me.
  • I also hear a lot about the toxic workplace culture in East Asia, especially Japan and South Korea. True? Is there anything about any other aspect of their work life that would cause envy for the average American worker? How does China compare?
  • How is white collar work in the Global South and so called third world countries? We hear a lot about unregulated labor jobs in such places, but not much on the side I have experience in.
  • How do other countries that are not often brought into this conversation here in the United States compare? One example might be Australia; others could be Eastern Europe or Southeast Asia, especially places like Singapore and Hong Kong, maybe South America, which has lots of areas that don’t fall under the previous bullet.

Look forward to interesting insights!

I’m one of the Western Europeans and it often seems like we do have the best of it in terms of worker’s rights.

In the UK, we get a decent allowance of paid time off and the majority of us also get paid sick leave. My employer would definitely bat an eyelid at a year’s sick leave but at the same time, they would not be able to fire me because of it. We have good trade unions, and those unions protect our workplace rights.

I can be signed off work by a medical professional, and still retain my job, although when I am fit to return to work it would be a long discussion with HR about whether my role would still be suitable, or whether I should be looking at other options. I have been a line manager for people who’ve come back to work with significant adjustments in their workload, hours, and even to the point of having new office equipment installed because it enables them to work.

I think a lot depends on the individual company. I worked for a county in Colorado. We where treated great. Lot’s of vacation and sick leave. I worked from home for the last 6 years, so I pretty much worked whenever. Oh, I was expected to check in and be around, but if I needed a 3 hour lunch, I took it.

The issue is usually that the US doesn’t have any statutory requirement for time off, sick leave, etc… much less any kind of guidance on how it should be structured.

So for most people, it’s maybe not quite as generous as some European countries, but nor is it a 365 day grind every year either.

The things that make it onerous for people are more around the lack of standardization- some companies are picky about when and how long you can take it, some companies combine sick and vacation into “PTO”, every company has different policies about how fast you accrue vacation time based on your tenure, and so forth.

Much like US healthcare, the abuses and bullshit at the lower end of things obscure that it’s generally workable for the majority of American workers.

Same thing for work structure/leaving early/work culture; I’ve worked for several employers, and the difference between the companies who employ a lot of blue collar people versus the ones who don’t is stark, even when you’re squarely a white collar worker. The ones that have a large blue collar contingent tend to treat their white collar workers the same way- getting pissy about how many hours you work, when you show up, when you leave, and so forth. The ones that are more firmly white collar are much less concerned with it- you want to take a two hour lunch? No problem, as long as you don’t miss meetings or miss deadlines/deliverables. Same if you leave fifteen minutes early or show up late. The assumption is that if you’re getting your job done, they don’t care if you’re working 7 hours or 8 hours a day.

Very true.

I sent an angry email out about some of us being able to work from home and others that where fully capable of doing that not allowed. It was stupid. No policy. Two days later, we where all sent home because of COVID. My Grand Boss asked everyone what they want to do? Come back to the office, or work from home? So I worked from home for 7 years. Worked out great.

I saw the writing on the wall, I bought all the computer/hardware/internet I needed. No need for them to do anything for me.

Worked out great.

I am in Australia and employed full time. My work week is 35 hours made up of 5, 7 hour days, Monday to Friday.

My conditions include:

10 paid public holidays a year
4 weeks paid annual leave each year
another 2 weeks a year of paid extended (long service) leave for having worked for more than 10 years
3 weeks a year of paid sick leave. Some unused sick leave is accrued. I haven’t had a sick day for years and have several hundred days of accrued sick leave that I could take if I needed it. It can also be used if caring for a family member.
We work flexible hours and can take 6 days of flex leave each quarter and make up the time on other days. So I really only work 4 days most weeks, taking a midweek break using flex or recreation leave. I mostly work from home and go to the office once or twice a week.

There is additional leave available:

Maternity/paternity leave for new births/adoptions
Family and community service leave for caring for sick family members
Leave for victims of family violence
Leave for observance of essential religious obligations
Military leave for staff who are in the Reserve Defence Forces
Study leave for undertaking part time courses in approved subjects
Special leave for a variety of reasons - jury service, serving in a volunteer organization during an emergency, competing in the Olympic or Commonwealth Games, donating blood or union activities

It is possible to amend your conditions by purchasing additional annual leave by sacrificing a portion of your salary

At my last job, where I worked for just shy of a decade, we saw the following come and go while I worked there:

  • What they called a 9/80 schedule, meaning that we worked four 9 hour days a week, and then every other Friday was a day off or an eight hour day.
  • No work from home whatsoever.
  • One or two days a year of WFH, for those times when you have the cable guy showing up between 10 and 5.
  • A more formal WFH policy that involved getting approval.
  • At least three different regimes of PTO accrual rates, because we were bought twice in that period.
  • Use it or lose it vacation time limits that changed at least once. For most of the time, they wouldn’t let you carry more than 40 hours into another year, so starting in about August, you’d start seeing the old-timers only show up four days a week and stuff like that.
  • Various vacation freezes due to big projects, etc.
  • About seven or eight holidays per year (New Year’s Day, Memorial day, 4th of July, Labor Day, Thanksgiving, NOT the day after Thanksgiving (what cheap shits they were), Xmas, and maybe MLK day; I can’t recall.

It could be infuriating, because we never knew from year to year what the policies were going to be like, and when you could or couldn’t take time off, or if you were just going to have to eat some amount of un-taken vacation time.

Now I work for a city, and we get a much more humane package:

  • 12 public holidays
  • After six years I get roughly 3 weeks a year of vacation time.
  • Some absurd amount of sick time; it accrues and doesn’t ever go away. I think my balance is in the multiple hundreds of hours by now.
  • Up to four days a year additional vacation for not calling in sick (one per quarter you don’t call in)
  • A pretty solidly white collar approach to coming and leaving work
  • 3 days a week WFH
  • Most of hte addtional leave types @don_t_ask points out, with the exception of maybe part-time college course leave.

A big part of our problem is that a lot of people here in the US have this crazy macho attitude that basically says that what I get is too cushy and that public workers shouldn’t get that. I’m not sure if it’s sour grapes, or if they really believe it.

In the US, worker treatment is basically a supply-and-demand thing, with very limited legal protections for the workers (compared to other developed countries).

In any job anywhere, there is no real upper limit to how well workers can be treated (except money), but many countries have more legal protections at the lower end. We have much fewer, and the ones we do have were hard-won by unions decades ago and haven’t gotten much better or kept up with modern needs like dual-income households or childcare.

Here, in-demand white-collar jobs (those having more employers than workers) will command high wages and absurdly cushy working conditions — exemplified by tech workers in the first dotcom boom and then again during COVID. That of course leads to more workers who want those jobs, then eventually a glut, mass layoffs and salary cuts, like happened to those same people after COVID. At my last US job, we had kegerators in the office, people would disappear for hours at a time and nobody would question it, my coworkers were watching video game streams while working, and to reward all of this hard work, the company took us out for a half-day ATV ride at the end of the week. Then a few weeks later, economic priorities above shifted and nearly the entire office was unceremoniously laid off. It’s a boom-and-bust mindset that’s good for capitalists at the top but not so much for the worker drones; the money is fungible and can be directed around as needed, but workers have no stability.

At the blue collar level, the situation is even worse, since everyone is even more readily replaceable, and many of the workers lack some combination of education, legal/regulatory knowledge, time, professional communication training, or financial resources to really fight for their rights, even in the instances that they actually have rights (e.g. state-level protections). Immigration status is another big one, especially now.

Having healthcare by default, a norm in the developed world of which we are no longer a part, is huge too… workers elsewhere aren’t generally enslaved to their employers for not just their livelihoods but their very lives.

It gives workers much less bargaining power when any risk they take can lead to the sudden loss of their health and lives, and their whole family’s too. And if you try to change that, even supposedly protected union organizing activities are often trespassed upon knowingly, especially whenever a Republican is in power and the NLRB is run by puppets. Most workers, especially those seeking union protections, don’t have the legal knowhow and long-term financial resources to fight back legally. By design, our whole country is designed to make capital accumulation easier and encourage wealth at the top at the expense of those who don’t (and often can’t) have any.


Anecdotally, I’d agree that Western Europe does seem quite a lot nicer. My ex from Finland had months of vacation time each year, mostly worked from home, had legal protections for being on call, etc. On her psychiatrist’s advice, she decided to take a few months of sick leave to deal with depression, and the state paid for it. Work didn’t bat an eye and just wished her well. (Ironically, she was also less happy than most American worker slaves I’ve known…)

In France and Italy, strikes and general strikes are pretty much a monthly celebration, and long vacations are normal and expected.

And at my previous American companies (all in software), there was a general culture of extensive mid-management and micro-management. Frequent meetings, reports, etc. Clocking-in rules differed from place to place, but generally speaking, taking 2-3 hours for lunch is fine, but nobody would think of disappearing for a whole month without extensive discussion first (unless you’re at a FAANG, maybe).

Now I work for an European company, after being unable to find work in the US for several months. One of my colleagues wanted to take the month off (with 2 days’ notice), and we were just like “Ok cool, see you in a month!”. People also routinely take chunks of time time out of the day to be with their children or to go for a long walk. I also haven’t had a 1-on-1 meeting with my bosses in several years. It weirds me out as an American; I am used to working much longer days on much tighter schedules; there, the work-life balance and their families are more important than anything at the job. Pay is 30% less than what I made in the US, but the overall culture is much healthier and people are happier. Ironically, I have more US holidays off now that I work for an European company, and more PTO days (from day 1) than I ever acrrued as a US worker. I don’t know if anyone is actually keeping track… I do my job, and the rest is just based on trust.

By contrast, from family members who’ve worked there, the Japanese work culture really is brutal, especially for foreigners (they’re really racist there towards anyone non-Japanese, extremely sexist towards women in professional settings, and extremely hierarchical and traditionalist). Even for the Japanese, the salaryman culture has led to a dating, marriage, and birthrate crisis, with many of their workers not having any time, money, or social skills necessary to meet a spouse and start a family. They’re now developing robots to help care for the elderly instead.

China has the 996 system: a norm where some workers are expected to work from 9am to 9pm, 6 hours a day, 72 hours a week.

Then there’s places like the Congo, where children mine for cobalt for use in consumer electronics: 'Cobalt Red' describes the 'horror show' of mining the element in the DRC : Goats and Soda : NPR

There’s also plenty of documentaries and vlogs on YouTube about working conditions in the world’s textiles industries. I’m sure many of them would happily trade places with a US worker who’s complaining about having worked a 60-hour week.

Western Europe is lucky in having a mix of affluence, human rights, and humanist/pro-labor values. But much of those are changing too and probably can’t last long, both in terms of their rightward swings politically and in terms of their less competitive economies.

If you’re in the top 10%, the US is likely to be very nice. If you’re in the bottom 10% anywhere, it’s going to suck. If you’re in the middle 80%, it’s hard to beat Western/Northern Europe and maybe the Commonwealth.

Most of us don’t get a choice, though. We’re just born into whatever we’re born into and most other countries wouldn’t want us.

I’m a white-collar worker in South Africa - we have excellent labour law and near-European levels of worker rights.

The one American labour practice that really stands out is at-will employment. That would never fly here or in Europe.

My work week when I started working from home was 30-50 hours a week. It varied a lot and it was up to me. I could work anytime I wanted to, so I suspect that’s why I went over 40 hours sometimes. I wanted to get things done.

But sometimes I had to work weird hours or weekends to shut systems down. We all did/do. That’s the nature of IS/IT.

Vacation was accrued. I think limited to 160 hours, or you would start losing it. I had over a 1000 hours of sick time accrued at some point. You never lose it. I think 10 holidays a year.

The sick time was great because I was taking days off to take care of my mother. Was OK if it was imediate family. I couldn’t use it to take care of a cousin.

At my previous employer one of my coworkers had to work with some people at our site in Germany (we’re in California). Apparently under German law you can’t be required to work outside of your normal scheduled work hours (I know we have some German Dopers who could say whether I’m correct or not on that point). Which sucked for my coworker, because it meant he always had to schedule his meetings with them during German work hours, which meant he was always the one who had to stay late to call in to the meetings.

Kinda timely and related, I was just recommended this on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQMZR64G_eM

It’s a 20-min documentary (in English) from a left-leaning channel on worker-owned cooperatives in Italy and how they’ve helped preserve rural economies and lobbied governments to reverse factory buyouts & mass layoffs.

The US has worker-owned co-ops as well (like Equal Exchange coffee and Alvarado St Bakery) but not at scale. We have many more ESOPs (employee stock ownership plans), but those don’t typically provide the 1-person-1-vote workplace democratic mechanism that true co-ops have.

Workplace culture is in part defined by (and in turn helps define) a country’s overall corporate landscape — whether it’s dominated by small family businesses or huge multinationals. I wonder how it looks, comparatively, on a global scale. If you look simplistically at the Gini Index vs per-capita GDP, the US is a stark outlier… rich on paper, but most of the wealth is hoarded by a few at the top and not meaningfully accessible by its worker class. All the European countries have significantly less inequality. (I didn’t realize that Gini was himself Italian.)

Ditto, replacing South Africa with Argentina.
Except that we had the brilliant idea of electing one Javier Milei and his merry band of fascists…
The senate is currently debating and will probably pass a “Labor legislation flexibilization” law that destroys all of that.
Sigh…

Well it’s not the law in Colorado, but I had to do that a number of times because of time zones. You just shrug, take it on and do your job.

2am call to India? OK, do it. Nobody ordered me to, but I am proud of my work. That’s what you do. Get the damn job done.

Now this was easier for me since I work from home and no longer had a 40 minute drive to work.

The only thing I can think about work culture in Japan that might be considered enviable for an American is that napping at work is often allowed (although this is perhaps more due to exhaustion than employee kindness) and also that some Japanese employers show more loyalty to long-term workers and keep them around for pay even when they are elderly and don’t contribute much. It is more common in Japan for an employee to stick around with an employer for decades than it is in the USA.

German employee here. The time zone difference between California and Germany is 9 hours for most of the year.

The German site could not have required their workers to work outside of normal hours unless their contract said otherwise. They could have made it possible with the agreement of the employees concerned, but (1) they’d have to sweeten the deal, and (2) they’d have to accomodate related changes in their working time for that day and the next.

They probably were too cheap to pay the cost (direct and loss of productivity) of making these accomodations.

The non-negotiable statutory provisions (which are health and safety rules) relevant to an one-time deviation from normal schedule are

  • Working time on any particular day must not exceed 10 hours, except emergencies (defined narrowly - convenience for head office does not qualify)
  • Resting time (period between end of work and start of work) must not be lower than 11 hours.

The penalties for an employer flouting these rules are criminal (as they are about health & safety). The training session we peons were given had the subtext “Let’s keep our management out of jail please”.

So the German branch office would need to, to accomodate a meeting in the evening (German time)

  • secure the agreement of their employees
  • have them start work late on the day of the meeting (to meet the 10 hr max working time rule)
  • have them start work late the next day (to meet the 11 hr rest period rule).

Just to add a different perspective on what Mops very correctly explained: German free lancer here. One way to circumvent all worker protection rules is to make the worker an external contractor. As a free lancer, I am free to exploit myself anyway I desire, or to let the people that contract me do the exploiting, for a price. No rules apply.
As an employee you may not even let them exploit you beyond what the law allows (see working hours, resting time, as explained in the post above). There is no discretion there, no good will you can show. Which is important, otherwise you could be pressured into being kind to your employer in an emergency, however it is defined. Which in turn leads to slippery slopes.

Of course, there is overtime. As a free lancer I don’t know the rules, but there are. Concerning remuneration, duration, frequency and probably some more details. Never affected me, so I ignore the details.

I suppose that was the same for me. But my employer allowed me to work from home. I basically set my own hours. Well I did have to do online meetings a couple times a month. But I did as I pleased.

33 years at the same place. If anything, they where afraid that I would leave. I did. I retired 5 days ago.