How do the announcers know right away what the hole cards are? They show up on the screen right as they’re dealt. Is the commentary taped after the actual poker’s played?
If you’re watching the World Poker Tour that’s playing on the Travel Channel, then each player has a card-cam that’s built into the table. Obviously the graphics (and maybe even the commentary) are placed later.
Oh, I’ve seen lots of players doing this. The bad ones.
The reason you think this is somehow a winning strategy is because of selective reinforcement. If you see a fish at the table say, “I’m hitting!”, and proceed to haul down pots with garbage hands, it sticks in your brain. When that same fish wins a hand or two, then silently sits there and loses all his chips because the ‘streak’ he thought he was on didn’t materialize, no one notices.
Also, when you’re playing against nine other players, the odds are that ONE of them will be getting more than his share of favorable flops. You remember that one, and you forget about the other eight.
In the long run, what gets the money is solid play. Players who start with the best hands before the flop will, in the long run, finish with the best hands after all the cards are dealt. There is no magic to this. It’s applied probability.
In fact, if there were no blinds or antes in poker, there would be no reason to play anything but the best possible hand, and there would be no action. But the blinds impart a cost per hand on the player, so it changes the mathematics such that there is a wider range of playable hands.
Now, I hate to mention this, because most average players use this kind of thinking to get themselves in trouble by convincing themselves to play too loose, but… There ARE times when you can play looser than the ‘book’ would recommend. When you have hit a bunch of hands in a row, it can sometimes give you a dominating position at the table, which you can use to your advantage by pushing people off of pots. But this only works against the right kind of player (weak-tight), and in the right circumstances.
Likewise, if you’ve been getting lousy cards for a long time, it gives you a perception of being a very tight player. In that circumstance, sometimes you can raise with a weaker than normal raising hand, to chase people out of a pot. But don’t take this too far - most players in an average game are probably oblivious anyway. And if all of them are good enough to be tracking your hand percentages, you’re playing in the wrong game.
BTW, I used to be a professional poker player and author of a number of articles on poker and gambling theory. So I do know this stuff.
If you are seriously interested in poker, I suggest you go over to Two Plus Two’s web site. They have a great message board there where you can ask any questions you want and get lots of good answers. Also, the ‘bible’ of Hold’em poker is “Hold’em Poker” by David Sklansky, and “Hold’em Poker For Advanced Players” by Sklansky and Malmuth. Two Plus Two is the publisher of those books, and both Sklansky and Malmuth can be found hanging out in their forum.
Don’t mind me, just writing in my notebook over here… ‘Don’t play poker with Sam Stone…’
Anyone who is considering taking up poker would do well to listen to Sam Stone and ignore curly chick. For the true beginner, I would recommend Lee Jones’ Hold’em book before the ones by Sklansky.
Haj
Sam Stone, that is the most truthful statement on this thread. I started out playing the poker table games such as: pai-gow (to pass time and get free drinks), carribean stud (total waste of money), 3 card poker (I seem to do well in this for some unknown reason, up hundreds of dollars), double down stud (I do ok in it), and let-it-ride (love the game but am even). Let It Ride is the closest to Texas Hold Em for the table games. But I wanted to try something new; play against other players instead of the dealer or the odds. One night (a few years ago), I went to our local Indian gaming casino to try out 2/4 Texas Hold’em. Talk about a “humble” experience…
I started with $100 in chips, and slowly got stripped, only winning two small pots out of 18, with 6 other players: 2 old ladies, 3 old, old men, and one guy about my age. My “tells” gave my hands away before most flops, and my high hands were DOA when I tried to raise the pot on the two good hands that I had. The old ladies seem to pick me off before the men did. I was weak in reading the rest of the group, regardless of what hand I was holding. I try to learn to keep my tells to a minimum, but I just end up losing at a slower pace. I’ve read a book or two, to learn the math and the hands, but I’m still light on experience, and it’s still costing me…what do you recommend for a slightly skilled player wanting to compete at a much higher level?
How’s this… only pretend to look at your cards (glance away so you don’t even see them) and play randomly.
I’d love to hear an answer to that question too. At my “local” (90 minutes drive) Indian casino, the only players at the tables are idiots from the UC and old Filipino men taking the money away from the first group (and myself). I can usually manage to break even by picking my tables carefully (I’m up, lifetime, over a sample size of only about a half-dozen outings totalling no more than 20 hours in all), but I’d like to find some simple advice on how to improve my game.
Then I might as well just play blind! Not good…
For every poor player losing, there is a good player winning; playing blind makes you neither, except it gives other players the idea to bet you up to see if you fold with cards unseen, and donate your share to the pot.
One would think that some form of “randomness” would keep the other players at bay when betting against you, but it doesn’t work that way, because they can alter their betting strategies against blind players quite easily. If they were stuck to the same number of bets and amounts of bets, then playing blind is a better option, if one at all.
Hmmm. I see.
So in answer to the OP, the reason this game is so popular, is that it seduces poor old dodos like me into believing they know what they are doing.
:wally
Right. Off to the library for some of the books Sam Stone mentioned
Well, yes. As the old saying goes, if you can’t spot the fish at the table, it’s probably you.
But yes, poker is a money game. People play it to make money. Games that tend to have more weak players in them make the good players more money. And the good players are the regulars that keep the games alive, get them started, keep them going during slow periods, etc. So the casinos give them what they want.
But the other aspect of it is that a good, well balanced poker game is just more fun. Some games have unbalanced strategies - People who play tighter always win over people who play too loose, or good players always beat weak players through employing simple strategies, or whatever. Hold’em is a well balanced game. You need a lot of skills to be really good at it, yet there is enough luck involved in the short run that a weak player can sit down and enjoy himself or herself and have a chance to actually win.
I am suggesting that it is possible to play semi-randomly and beat anybody whose strategy is to predict your actions. Not to be confused with playing blind or playing stupidly.
If someone tries to outsmart you because they have more skill or more experience, you level the playing field by being unpredictable enough to throw them off.
Consider this algorithm:
X percent of the time, play normally.
Y percent of the time, play randomly.
When playing randomly, pretend to glance at your cards and make up a different set of cards instead. Play as if those imagined cards were your hand. Your “tells” and mannerisms should reflect the imaginary cards and throw off any skilled predictor.
Adjust X and Y as necessary. Voila, instant winning strategy.
Thanks for the responses all. Sorry if I upset some people with my “dumb game” comment. I certainly didn’t mean to insult anyone who likes hold 'em.
Anyway, I am a decidedly UNskilled poker player and would get my ass handed to me by anyone who was even competent. This probably explains why I don’t understand the intricacies of hold 'em strategy.
Sam’s point about good players actually liking games that have a bit more luck involved makes sense, but at the WS of P, are there really any “fish” involved at all? Especially at the final tables?
I guess my point was that it seems the pros would get pissed at losing to an inferior player that goes in on a less than ideal hand, and wins because 5/7 of the cards are turned up after betting.
I understand that there are other tournaments that play Omaha and stud, but hold 'em is the big one. Is this maybe simply because it’s a better spectator game? The crowd can see the cards turning up and the tension builds as the last ones are turned.
Anyway, looks like I’m off to find some of the books that people have mentioned.
I actually play with some guys who play JUST like this, not because they are trying to be random, but because they are fairly smart guys who are still learning the ropes at Poker.
So sometimes they’ll play tight, but only because they don’t realize just how strong their position is. Other times, they’ll bet up the pot like maniacs because they think their position is much stronger than it really is.
Playing with these people can be infuriating, but the good players at the table have learned how to handle these unpredictable guys. When these players are still in near the end of a hand, we stop playing the man, and we just play the cards. So in a way. you’re right, having these players at the table definitely neutralizes much of the advantage of the good players. But I wouldn’t call it a winning strategy either. Far more opportunities are missed by these players because of their mistakes, so it is not worth the “cost” of playing randomly just to neutralize the good players’ ability to read his opponents.
Good players love to see behavior like this, because every time the luck player doesn’t catch his flush, he loses. Anybody can catch one (or two, or three) lucky hands, but over time, as a good player, just make those bad players pay to see the cards and you win money.
For those looking to improve their game:
Tells:
http://www.planetpoker.com/mcu/library/tells/video_tell.html
Join rec.poker.net
Read all of slansky and malmut (search amazon)
Get this software program:
Get in live games. You can make money online, but you can make BIG money reading people.
Blatant name dropping hijack: Mike Caro, from KidCharlemagne’s planetpoker link above, is a relative of mine. Well, sort of; he married my father’s cousin, so I don’t think that really makes him offically anything to me. But I’ve met him a few times. He’s a nice guy. I always want to talk poker with him, but the few times I’ve met him, it’s been at some family function, and I feel a little strange bringing poker up.
To those who follow professional poker more closely than I do, I gotta ask, is Phil Hellmuth Junior as much of an ass as he seems every single time I see him on TV? I totally get that when he’s at the table he’s doing the psych warfare and whatever, but even when they show him, say, relaxing by the pool or wandering around on a cruise ship he comes off like a prick. I was watching the World Poker Tour last week and he was getting spanked repeatedly by some former magician and I was sitting at home giggling like a damn schoolgirl.
KidCharlemagne, thanks for the links. I downloaded the demo and liked it. The demo only gives you 25 hands, but I actually did better the first time through playing my own game than the second time through playing their advice. I think I’m gonna buy the software. Of course the computer players couldn’t see my tells which consist of jumping up and down and hollering when appropriate.
Well, first I’m going up to Ocean’s Eleven casino in Oceanside to see if they have a $.25/.50 table. 
Actually, by bro-in-law plays up there and I guess I’m going to have to tag along one of these days…
My advice is to practice developing your reading of a table. I hardly ever play anymore myself but I used to be good at reading a strategy or a tell of a person. I would say watch a few world series of poker on tape and watch the guys, mannerisms, how they bet, when they folded, guage their actions and develop an eye for the way the person works the table.
And become confident in your abilities…its as much psychological as it is both skill and luck.
Anyway, thats my 2 cents. Dunno if it will help but I became a better poker player as I started noticing small things like betting patterns according to cards from other players and involuntary mannerisms.
Of course, I am no match against some serious heavies. Just a Joe with a bit of luck and a few good hands.