World Series of Poker Question

‘Tells’ are highly overrated, in the sense of spotting someone’s nervous tic or whatever. Physical tells are hard to spot, and not worth much, IMO.

It’s much more important to learn to spot playing strategy. What range of hands a player is likely to have in early position. Which hands a particular player is likely to hold if he raises. That sort of thing. Also, learn to watch a player’s chip stack, and know whether they are winning or losing. Players down a lot of money often go ‘on tilt’, and lose their composure (and their skills). They are likely to play looser, and to pay off bets with very little. Do not try to bluff someone who’s stuck a thousand dollars at three in the morning.

Players who are up a lot of money often play more aggressively. Players who WERE down a lot of money but have gotten back to even usually play very tight - they’re thinking, “Man, I’m lucky I got all my money back. Okay, now I’m going to settle down and play really solid poker. No more taking chances!” A player like this is likely to release a middling-good hand, and a bluff with a flush draw might be profitable.

There are also some ‘psychological’ tells. For example, if a flop comes up all diamonds, watch for the players who pick up their cards and look at them again. Chances are, they have two unsuited cards, and they are looking to see if one of them is the same suit as the three on the table. Most likely, they have at least one big card.

To give you an example of how a ‘read’ like this might work, let’s say a player calls from early position. I know him to be a solid, reasonably tight player. The flop comes up K94, all of diamonds. This player glances at his cards. Now, there is a very limited range of hands a tough player will call from in early position - either big suited cards (AJs, ATs, KQs, a couple of others), or a big pair, or very big unsuited cards (AQ, AK, KQ maybe).

Out of these unsuited hands, most players would raise with AK, AA, KK, QQ. So my guess at this point is that he’s got AQ offsuit, and he was checking to see if his Ace was the same suit as the diamonds - most players, if they have two suited cards, remember the suit. If they are offsuit, they aren’t playing for a flush, and may not pay attention to the suits. That’s why he had to check again. Also, if he doesn’t bet, he probably doesn’t have a king, because most players would bet a pair of Kings in this position. He might be going for a check-raise, so I’ll keep that in mind.

So now I’m tentatively putting him on AQ, maybe AJ or possibly AK. Of course, he could have something else - never tie yourself to a read in the face of other evidence. But I’m pretty sure he doesn’t have suited connectors, like 7s8s - lots of players will play those cards from early position, but a three-diamond flop wouldn’t have given him a reason to re-check his cards.

Now, let’s say I’ve got Qd9s. So I’ve flopped second pair, and a draw to the second-nut flush. First player checks, the next player checks to me, and I bet my second pair/flush draw. Player behind me calls, and the next player raises. The first player cold calls the raise. Now my suspicions are pretty solid - he’s drawing to the Ace of Diamonds, and my Queen of Diamonds is no good. Neither is my second pair with a raise and a call behind me. So when the action gets to me, I fold.

That’s the way tells get used in a real game. Not, “Oh, he’s scratching his ear, and he always does that when he has a big hand!”. That stuff is mostly for the movies. Real life is all about understanding behaviour.

Here’s another one of my favorites - Seven card stud, and a player has three diamonds showing. He bets, representing the flush. I fold and let him have the pot. He looks at his hold cards one more time before throwing them away. What does that tell me? It tells me he probably had the flush. It’s a ‘pretty hand’, and players like to look at pretty hands. If he was bluffing, why would he want to look at his busted straight or whatever? Who cares? So that little tell gives me some information about this players betting and bluffing habits that less observant players won’t pick up on.

er, hole cards. Not hold cards.

A very good explanation Sam. Your strategy in that department plays a lot like mine.

Do you still play? I love a good story about landing a big fish if you got any.

I don’t have a lot of ‘big fish’ stories, although I’ve played in a few big games. One game in particular I remember, there must have been $80,000 in cash in play on the table. I’ve played in lots of no-limit games where the buy in was $500 - $1000, and people would be up or down a couple of thousand. Being a conservative player, I usually wasn’t. My worst day of poker ever, I lost $2700. My best day was a $7200 bad-beat jackpot win. Lots and lots of days where my wins or losses were in the $1000 range - my favorite games were $10/$20 to $20/$40 Holdem and Omaha. Where I play, there are almost never bigger games (for those who don’t know, 10/20 means that you must bet $10 before the flop and on the flop to call, and $20 on the river. Typically, three raises maximum are allowed, so the most it could cost you to play out a single hand in a 10/20 game would be $240. Double that in a 20/40 of course.)

Another day I fondly remember: There was a tournament in town - $100 buy-in no limit Hold-em. I showed up a few hours early, and the only seat available was in a 5/10 game. So I sat down, and hit tons of good cards and made $700. Then I won the tournament, and picked up another $1360. On the way home, I stopped at another poker club to see if a friend of mine was there, so I could tell him my good fortune. He was, and he was sitting in a 15/30 Omaha game. There was a seat open, so I said, “What the hell. I’ll play a little more cards today.” In one hour, I made $1100 more. I cashed out, went home, and relaxed and watched a movie. On that day, I thought I had the best job in the world.

Now ask me about the bad days…

I’ve met Caro. He’s a very cool guy. My guess is that he’d love nothing more than discussing poker with you. He’s been bored out of his mind at the family gatherings dying to talk cards with someone.

Haj

That should have been: He’s probably been bored out of his mind at the family gatherings dying to talk cards with someone. Sorry. Your family gatherings could be wild ass parties for all I know.

Haj

I’m dredging this up to ask a couple questions:

  1. How are the opening rounds arranged, such that different people at the final table come in with different amounts of money?

  2. On the Travel Channel series, do you think they show all the hands, or just the good ones?

I know this thread is over a month old, but i just wanted to share a couple of things.

Firstly, for those who want to experience some of the thrill of poker without risking any money, may i suggest that you join the Freeplay group at PokerPages. You have to go to this website and download a program (~15Mb) onto your computer. Once you have installed the software and registered online, you can play against other people (not against a computer) over the internet.

Playing is unlimited and free, and you can choose from pot limit hold-em, no limit hold-em, 7-card stud, 7-card stud hi-lo, as well as tournaments. I usually play no limit hold-em. You sign up for a table, and when ten people have signed up the game begins. Everyone gets 2,000 “dollars” worth of chips, and the game continues until one person is left.

While nothing can compare to playing with real money, playing in this free game allows you to get a sense of the best way to play particular hands, and it also trains you to read other people’s playing strategy. I like to try to play as if it were real money that i don’t want to lose. This often means sitting out the first few hands, because some people just go all-in on the first hand, no matter what, because they know that there are no consequences to losing–they can just join the next game. Once you get these people out of the way (and they lose pretty quickly, believe me), you can settle down for a good game. Obviously you can’t pick up on people’s facial expressions or body movements over the internet, but it’s amazing how much you can learn about someone by watching their betting strategy etc., just as Sam Stone suggested above.

If you think you’ve got what it takes you can, of course, move on to play for money. I haven’t done that yet; i prefer the idea of playing people around a table.

As far as reading matter goes, i thought Andy Bellin’s Poker Nation: A High Stakes, Low-Life Adventure into the Heart of Gambling Country was an interesting read. It’s not a proper how-to manual like Sklansky’s; rather, it’s a mix of strategy, history, anecdote and advice.

I’m sure there are other good movies about poker, but no limit hold-em also plays a prominent part in the film Rounders, starring Matt Damon, Edward Norton, Gretchen Mol, John Turturro, and John Malkovitch (doing an awful Russian accent).

Thanks for resurrecting this thread, mhendo, because I missed it the first time around. I have a couple questions and thoughts that have been brewing, and now I have a thread to chat about it in.

Thoughts:

  1. SPOILER TO THE RESULTS OF THIS YEAR’S WSOP AHEAD:

This year, a guy from Tennessee who had NEVER played in a live poker tournament won it all (I think it was a 2.5 million payout). He got his seat after winning it in an online tournament. Seeing that this guy could end up beating the best poker pro’s makes me think that luck plays a bigger part of the tournament than I previously believed. Then, I realized that the final table is generally filled with familar names at almost every tournament, which shows me anybody CAN win it all, but skill is still more important.

  1. Phil Hellmuth strikes me as an asswipe also. Every time I see his pompous mug, I choke. Which is why I was so happy watching him get his head shaved after he shot off his mouth at a prior WSOP about the eventual winner. Now if only he had said he’d shut the hell up for the rest of his life, that woulda suited me just fine.

  2. I love the WPT on the Travel Channel. I’m addicted. They can even make the tournaments when you know who is going to win more interesting.

Questions:

  1. Are there any online sites that someone would recommend to play for real money at, if at all? I’ve only played live because I don’t like the idea of collusion and inability to read players online. I’ve had great success with play money, but the players are mostly complete idiots, so it doesn’t mean crap.

  2. Why should I play a tournament rather than a money game? I’ve played in about 5 no-limit tournaments and been bounced after bad beats in 3 of them (I won one, and played like an idiot in the other). In all I’m ahead, but I prefer a regular table with more fishys. Am I missing something?

  3. Recommend a poker room in Vegas. I’ve only been to the Mirage and Bellagio, both of which suited me fine, but I just wonder if there is a better place. Never been to the Horseshoe.

  4. Is the Wilson software worth it’s hefty price?

Yesterday’s WPT sucked. What’s the point of playing if the chip-leader is 10x the chips of the 2nd position?

Huh, and here I just posted in another thread how I thought I was the only one who watched WPT.

Anyway, it looked to me like, up until the last few hands, Jerry Buss was giving Layne a run for his money. Jerry looked like he imploded on the last four or so hands, making bizarre mistakes like turning his cards up and mucking at least one hand that even a rank novice like me would have known was a total bluff. And I found the interaction between Layne and Jerry to be very entertaining and the general atmosphere of the tournament to be quite enjoyable, but there was still some pressure and Jerry let it get to him in the end. That being said, I was also pretty staggered at the difference between the stacks of the chip leader and the rest of the field.