Worried well or data hunger gone crazy?

The women in my family have a long history of endometriosis and Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder. My great grandmother was institutionalized because of her mental instability. Until my Aunt, no woman had made it to menopause without a hysterectomy.

After years and years of agony, the trick that finally worked for both my mother and my Aunt was to say, sincerely and directly, “If you do not cut out my uterus I am going to kill myself.” Then they did the surgery but only grudgingly, until each of them was cut open to reveal the horrors of their reproductive systems. And then the doctors acted astonished at their findings.

I have PMDD and presumed endometriosis that is being controlled with birth control, but I have no idea what’s going to happen to me when they pull me off of it during menopause. I suspect I will become disabled. I don’t know how long I’ll have to suffer before they cut it out. I try not to think about it. When I’ve broached the subject in the past, I’ve been shut down and minimized pretty consistently.

The average woman waits 12 years before a proper diagnosis of endometriosis.

Then there are the women I know whose pain was ignored until they literally almost bled out and died due to uterine cancer. This has happened to two of my friends.

My personal opinion is that a lot of people suffer unnecessarily because of apathy and skepticism about someone’s honest assessment of how they are doing. And that apathy and skepticism drives people to do idiotic things like this in an attempt to be heard.

Could both be true?

Barring actual hypochondria, I don’t know. People don’t usually go through the effort to see a doctor multiple times and half a dozen different specialists and whatever unless they are really hurting. It’s time consuming, stressful, and expensive.

I also think we can accept that life is not free of physical and emotional pain while simultaneously addressing physical and emotional pain.

Though there is a little Zen mantra I find comforting.

I am of the nature to have ill health.
I am of the nature to grow old.
I am of the nature to die.

But like, I still see the doctor when I need to. (Okay, truth is, I often put it off. Which I am doing right now, because the treatment is not going to be pleasant.)

A lot of my aversion to doctors and the reason it takes me so long is because I hate being patronized. I’ve been dismissed so many times my attitude toward seeking medical care is often, “Why bother?” But of course the longer I wait, the worse it can get.

Most of the people getting those labels are not the folk I’d place in the worried well group. No question sometimes the labels are in fuzzy ways. Often however what is actionable as a result is actually helpful whatever the label used. Yes as suggested

Not only CBT for pain either. And other modalities. PT as well.

Double posting because some of this last bit gets me recognizing somewhat contradicting opinions I simultaneously hold:

I am not a fan of thinking of any individual as being a worried well. The stories told above by @Spice_Weasel are ample illustration why. If a person in front of you has worries take those worries seriously and with respect. Compassion and validation alone can be of help. The positive diagnosis of no disease can usually be made primarily with history and physical exam and testing should be done only when indicated. But dismissiveness is harmful.

AND I feel strongly that we have an overall population that has lots of people who can only be as a group described as the worried well. Made worse by the avalanche of data available to them, and an industry devoted to maximizing their anxiety in order to sell everything from stupid lab tests, whole body MRIs, useless to harmful supplements, to ineffective but more costly interventions like hyperbaric oxygen therapy.

Worried well as a phrase to describe a specific person is bad form at best; to describe the population OTOH is on point.

Well, they’ve mostly succeeded. Health care is hard to get for a large fraction of the population. Doctor’s appointments are rushed, and real complaints get ignored or brushed off. And therefore, i think it’s helpful that people who have symptoms can do something to investigate them, even if their doctors ignore them.

I understand the risks of false positives. I was really annoyed that the state required me to get tested for HIV when i was pregnant (or maybe they tested all newborns, which is the same thing) because i knew that the risk of a false positive was a lot higher than the odds i had HIV, and having an HIV diagnosis on your medical records can really mess up your life. (Or it did then, maybe it’s not so bad today.)

And heck, I’m participating in a study to see if it might be better to do fewer mammograms.

But i also like to own my own data, and not have some doctor who may not care much about me be a gatekeeper. And if something pops up, you know what, a 1 in 7 chance is enough to persuade most PCPs to investigate a little more. It gives them a reason to persuade the insurance company that it’s worth looking at, too.

I endorse this when possible. A close friend and my mother were both passed off to psychiatrists (being told, “it’s all in your head”, fwiw) and in both cases, the psychiatrist was very helpful. The friend had chronic fatigue syndrome, and the shrink both validated her physical illness and helped her cope. (And the doctors who had sent her away didn’t have anything useful they could have done anyway.) My mother had myasthenia, and the psychiatrist told her other doctors, “keep looking, this is definitely not psychiatric”.

Did you do your research on this?

You are completely correct that the screening test for pregnant women of a low risk group has a positive predictive value of only 83% (Bayes again). But its function is to screen. Those positives are then followed with two additional more specific tests including an RNA assay before considered as real. False positives after those follow ups are, I believe, zero or at least very damn close.

Screening wants most of all to have a great negative predictive value, to miss very few. The benefits of identifying pregnant women with HIV and being able to prevent neonatal infection are huge; missing any should be as close to a never event as possible.

HIV screening pregnant women with follow up testing is good medicine.

This is a tough topic for me, and I’ve opined on it before.

I spent far too many years of my life engaged in two totally separate, years-long medical odysseys – the first: ophthalmologic, the second: cardiac.

In both odysseys, I was invalidated, dismissed, and gaslighted*, often by the top physicians in their field.

But I persisted, did no end of research, pushed for additional testing, and – through dint of effort that no patient should ever be required to expend – figured out what actually was wrong with my eyes (which was quickly adjudged to be disabling) and my heart (which is terminal).

How much of a unicorn am I, really? I have no idea. How would we know?

As medicine evolves, the pressures on providers seem only to increase. The time pressures on them can be enormous, and I was not their only patient.

But I was definitely my only patient. I had the time.

I spent countless hours learning foundational stuff about both ophthalmology and cardiology – enough to put test data into context; enough to understand how much weight to give each salient piece of test data that my pleading with physicians eventually elicited.

I’m fortunate that ‘medicine’ is a language I can learn to speak.

I’ve mentioned that my wife is a Nurse Practitioner who works at a Medical Residency Program, where new doctors gain hands-on experience, under faculty supervision, in primary care.

Because of my story, my wife has taken to never telling a patient that there’s “nothing wrong with them,” or – far, FAR worse – gaslighting them.

Instead, she’ll say, “I don’t know what’s wrong with you at this point,” or “all of your tests are negative,” or “… but we can only test for what we can test for, and the majority of those tests only give a snapshot of a point-in time.”

My wife also shares that approach with the faculty and residents.

My eye issues were confirmed (after I repeatedly suggested that X might be my diagnosis) with a week-long course of eyedrops. That’s it. That’s what it took. The confirmation was absolute – all of the objective findings resolved with the drops.

My heart issues were confirmed with repeated endomyocardial biopsies. The confirmation there, too, was absolute.

In my case, I was the only one who accurately weighted the evidence before us, understanding how sensitive and specific each test was – which test results mattered and which really didn’t.

I was also the only one who believed that there was actually anything wrong with me, and that it might be serious.

*A couple that still stand out to me, years and years later:

  1. (By one of the paragons of ophthalmology, written in my chart) “I told the patient to stop worrying about himself, which is obviously his basic problem.” It wasn’t;
  2. (By another renowned ophthalmologist who authored several ophth. textbooks – in my chart) “The patient exhibits zero accommodative amplitudes – highly unusual at his age.” This was it. This was huge. Had he bothered to consider why this might be the case, I may have saved several years and much unneeded heartache;
  3. (By a renowned cardiologist at a famous teaching hospital, also in my chart) “The patient claimed to have interpreted past echocardiogram data in a particular way, presenting it to me as a potential diagnosis and asking me what it all amounted to. I told the patient that the data he described didn’t accurately reflect his test results, and that – even if it did – it didn’t describe a particular diagnosis. I also told the patient that – because his ejection fraction was normal – he did not have heart failure.” He really couldn’t have been more wrong.

First I am sad for your experience.

And of course rare disease states (the so-called zebras) exist.

Still. My guess is that tests in this bucket o testing are highly unlikely to include any of the tests that would have raised suspicion of your true diagnoses for your specific actual conditions.

Let us imagine an alternate history. Early on in the frustrations of having problems that did not fit anything that overall well qualified experts recognized, someone signs up for one of these tests. It identifies positive ANA (a large number of people), various “deficiencies”, and “sensitivities” to a variety of foods. A variety of supplements are sold and dietary restrictions are advised. “Ah ha!” the person says. I have these various problems! Placebo effect being what it is they even feel better for a bit.

Was that person helped? Or was their odyssey just delayed further with a false path and false hope?

There’s big bucks in direct to consumer lab testing, and the market is expanding at an impressive rate, estimated to reach over $8 billion globally in the next decade.

The previously mentioned Function Health under live-nearly-forever doc Mark Hyman is betting on being a big part of that.

All those dubious diagnoses helping to funnel loads of patient $$$ into Hyman’s supplement business and we’re talking Mercola-level personal wealth or more.

True, the article details how competition from other direct to consumer testing companies is putting downward pressure on subscription prices, so it may not be a sure bet to invest in Function or other startups. Might be safer to put your money in Quest Diagnostics or LabCorp, the giant commercial labs that handle much of the new flood of consumer tests.

Someone will be profiting big-time; why not get in on the action?

Nope. I had no choice, so there was no benefit in doing so. And also, i suspect that even testing positive in the initial screening test would have created problems for me. This was in the early 90s, and AIDS mania was still strong.

Can you define “worried well” a little more precisely? I suspect I may be interpreting that differently than you.

The issue I see is with people whom I perceive as experiencing some degree of discomfort, and behaving as though their discomfort is more incapacitating than I feel it ought to be for most people. Also, such people often do not pursue healthy lifestyles which are generally the first prescribed treatment for such conditions. In my mind, what I a describing is somewhat different from the examples given of people with clear, but hard to diagnose, conditions.

I readily acknowledge that my perspective is biased as a result of the population I personally encounter. And I readily acknowledge that different people experience pain and discomfort differently. I also readily acknowledge that I ought to know better than to try to express my opinions in threads such as this. :wink:

Not the population I am talking about. The population I am referencing are not incapacitated, they function just fine, even if some think they should or could feel better.

Neither are the “worried well” people who are full on hypochondriacs.

It is a lower level anxiety that gets exploited by click bait. They click because they are worried that they might be unwell and not know it. Because they are afraid there is something they are not protecting themselves or their kids from. And it isn’t what the stupid evil “experts” say it is. It is exactly the target demographic of MAHA and the sellers of whole body MRI screens and Function Health, the sellers of various supplements and books that promise a quick dietary hack to good health.

I can well imagine the sort of folk you describe. Likely similar to folk who overly attend to all manner of clickbait. I am generally unaware of such folk. Tho I do see records in which patients approach their doctors with their self researched “diagnoses.” :roll_eyes:

Do you encounter a lot of hypochondriacs? I don’t feel I do, tho at times I wonder when I see someone “diagnosed” with a laundry list fo 15-20 different physiological and mental conditions. Degenerative disc/joint disease, seroneg RA, psoriatic arthritis, fibromyalgia, migraines, pseudoseizures, chronic fatigue, long haul covid/lyme, depression, anxiety, somatoform disorder, etc. How would one determine whether such a person was a hypochondriac? And - instead of improving their diet and exercising, they end up on 20+ meds.

These were the kind of people I was referring to up thread. Only in my case, I frequently see them after they’ve had unnecessary lumbar spine surgery which has left them in worse shape than they were before.

See, I sort of agree with you that these people exist, and I think sometimes you make good points… but it would be much more compelling if you actually understood the maladies you are skeptical of. For example, you’ve repeatedly expressed skepticism of mental health disorders and the degree to which they can be incapacitating, despite being confronted with reams of evidence to the contrary.

Not that I don’t think you have valuable ideas to contribute or anything like that, but of course you don’t believe people when they are suffering - that’s your schtick. Yes, some people lie. But you currently have zero basis whatsoever for determining whether or not they are lying, because you don’t understand the diseases they are potentially lying about.

It’s also important to think about how mental and physical difficulties often reinforce and magnify each other’s effects. For some reason I am one of those people that manifests stress physically. Since yesterday, for some reason my face is pretty swollen (it doesn’t hurt, it’s just puffy and red and warm) and I can’t figure out what the hell I did to it, but it’s probably just my body doing weird-ass shit in response to stress. Of course, when you have a chronic medical condition, that in and of itself is stressful. And you don’t know for any given individual whether things are really as bad as they say, which is why it’s better to give them the benefit of a doubt rather than assume they are exaggerating.

My grandmother was diagnosed with fibromyalgia many years ago. I can’t comment on the validity of the diagnosis but as someone very close to her, she is someone always trying to do everything for everyone, and there were days I personally witnessed her being so physically weak she was unable to lift a milk jug. In her 40s. There was no question whatsoever that she was really suffering. The “why?” is the question. She seems much better today even though she’s in her 60s, but she’s also been medicated a long time so I can only speculate as to what’s improved.

The other thing to keep in mind about chronic illness is that the severity varies from day to day. This is where the “spoons” theory comes from. Some days I’ve got 27 spoons. Some days I’ve got five. There can be all sorts of reasons for this, from situational to hormonal. So just because someone seems fine one day doesn’t mean they are fine all of the days, or even most of the days.

I could list maybe seven chronic issues I’m currently dealing with and I think that one is long COVID because the symptoms started after infection three years ago. I suspect a lot of people are dealing with that right now so the demand for answers is even higher, especially with COVID deniers who can’t face the obvious. I’m only concluding long COVID through a process of elimination. It’s not my ADHD meds wearing off, it’s not sleep apnea because I have a CPAP now and the symptoms persist. If it is long COVID I don’t see the point of going to a doctor about it because there is no cure. But it truly fucking sucks when you struggle to get work done every afternoon because of brain fog, sudden intense depression and fatigue. It’s worse some days than others but it’s pretty much every day. I now have Adderall to power through it better but I’m definitely at reduced cognitive capacity between 2-6 pm most days. And then around 6pm I fully recover and I’m fine for the rest of the night.

I also wanted to say I have a functional medicine doctor, supposedly, and he’s never recommended me a single supplement or anything. He seems like a standard GP to me.

That is fine that you have your opinion. I’d be surprised if I ever expressed skepticism that any number of conditions CAN be incapacitating. My concern is determining whether they can reasonably be found to be incapacitating in a specific case.

I’m not sure why you believe I don’t understand various maladies or have zero basis for determining whether someone is lying. I am not a medical doctor. But my full-time job for 40 years has involved reading medical records, speaking with people claiming various degree of limitation, undergoing training on various medical conditions, and discussing conditions and specific cases with medical doctors. I may not be any special kind of expert, but I believe my views have slightly more than zero basis, and reflect something other than a chosen schtick.

So, when it comes to the administration of private or public disability benefits, should benefits be paid to everyone who simply says, “Please give me benefits. I’m disabled.”? If not, someone has to make some kind of assessment.

No, I’m not talking about the cases you review. I’m talking about the opinions you express on this board, including multiple JAQ threads where people try to respond nicely to you and you double down. This does not suggest you are open to new knowledge on these topics. You also come into threads created by other people about disabilities to express your skepticism when the thread isn’t even about that. See: the thread I started specifically for neurodiverse individuals.

I actually think your approach to your job, based on what you’ve described in the past, is quite reasonable. I would be the same way. You can’t fund everything. Not everyone has the same level of need. The problem is the way you come off to posters here whenever we are discussing this stuff (well, speaking for myself, at least.) It’s very frustrating. I’m not gnashing my teeth or anything because I don’t really take it personally. I just never get the chance to talk forthrightly about this because those threads aren’t usually in the Pit, and I don’t want to derail them. Nor do I want to make you feel bad.

I find it challenging when a sincere inquiry for others’ insight and experiences is simply dismissed as “JAQ.” Per wikipedia, Just Asking Questions” (JAQ; known derisively as “JAQing off”)[a] is a pseudoskeptical tactic often used by conspiracy theorists to present false or distorted claims by framing them as questions.

As far as I can recall, my intent is never to do that. I think is a bullshit passive aggressive response to mischaracterize what was intended as a sincere request for views other than mine. Asking questions from people situated differently from me is one of the best ways I know of to learn. However, asking for and receiving different views does not mean I am going to accept them at face value.

I grant that I should be more circumspect when persons offer insights and opinions I find problematic. I am not the most empathetic person. I have been making a much greater effort to simply stay out of threads such as your neurodiverse one, as I feel my participation will not do either of us much good. I was very hesitant to even enter this thread, but I was interested in what the thread initiator had to say.

I find those discussions frustrating as well, as it often seems like persons simply wish to affirm each other, based more on feelings and sympathy than much else. I am generally willing to hold my views up to criticism, and have regularly changed them. But someone simply claiming they feel differently and object to my questioning something is generally inadequate for me to change my opinion.

Apologies to Dseid for pushing this into hijack territory. I’ll think I’ve said as much as I have to contribute to this thread.