Worried well or data hunger gone crazy?

I have previously posted in other fora about how “we” have too much data, specifically health metric data, available now.

This bit though is not at IMHO level (gift link) -

https://www.nytimes.com/2026/01/08/well/function-health-blood-tests.html?unlocked_article_code=1.EVA.iF7w.Muaw1SXsMvVz&smid=nytcore-ios-share

Direct to consumer testing for everything.

The worried well are sure to find something “abnormal” to justify and amplify their anxiety doing thus, will not be easily talked down, and will be easy marks for snake oil, I mean vitamins and supplements, to address these problems their stupid doctors didn’t want to test for.

Pisses me off this does

Part of the problem is that the more dimensions you measure across, the more extreme points you will find: only 32% of a single normal variable’s distribution is outside 1 sigma of the mean - but in two dimensions it’s 60% and three dimensions 80%. If you measure 100 variables, almost everyone will have one or two 3-sigma results.

See

for an interesting example

That’s exactly what the billionaires want. Make actual healthcare unaffordable (because doing that right won’t make them money) so that the populace has to depend on their supplements and devices. All in the name of freedom - taking charge of your own life because you know what’s best for you. Do your own research!

I want all the data on my health I can obtain, and after discussing it with my doctor, I can conduct my own research and decide what, if anything, I want to do about it. I realize I am far from the norm, but there’s no reason for someone to buy snake oil if they know what they are doing.

I read the article. The “face” of Function is a friend of RFKjr.

Yeah. Don’t trust that as far as I can toss it.

I feel terrible for people who are suffering from undiagnosed disorders. And I understand the need to know what your numbers are and if something is laying in wait to knock you in a grave.

If these places are hawking supplements as a side business I’m suspect immediately.

I get every kind of offer you can think of from being a diabetic.

There’s a new thing I’m seeing that looks like a finger clip for patients that hospitals use, except for diabetics for home use. My immediate reaction was, cool, I want that. It’s a piece of unreliable junk I found out doing a bare minimum of research.

We as patients are prayed upon by unscrupulous snake oil sales pitches.

I laugh Everytime I see the supplement ads on TV. But I remember they are making a killing on the back of consumers.

Disgusting.

Exactly right. There is little appreciation by most about statistical abnormalities vs disease or how Bayes Theorum and pretest probability makes abnormal results overwhelmingly likely to be false positives even with decent sensitivity and specificity when pretest probability is low. The average person will have multiple positives, almost always false positives for low probability items, and unneeded interventions will result at best, cascading more aggressive testing likely a fair fraction of the time. Real harms.

One hell of a red flag there. Hyman is the guy who claims he’s planning to live to be 120 (maybe 180) by addressing the “root causes” of disease - defined as not taking as many supplement pills daily as he wants to sell you. “Functional medicine” docs are notorious for ordering lots and lots of unnecesssary tests and finding reasons to put you…on more supplement pills and dubious treatments.

It’s been known for quite awhile that the false positive rate of a panel of common blood tests can be as high as 5% - meaning that of 20 tests, it’s quite likely that 1 will show results that are out of whack - but not really.

As an anecdote: years ago I had comprehensive blood work drawn and it came back showing liver function testing was abnormal - AST and maybe ALT markedly elevated. I was worried something was seriously wrong, maybe hepatitis B contracted through work, infecting not only myself but Mrs. J. Repeat testing showed - normal findings. Inexplicable error.

Test for 100 markers without good clinical justification, and several are bound to be out of range, panicking patients and offering great opportunities for functional medicine quacks and supplement sleazebags to exploit those worries.

Same for whole-body MRIs. They’re bound to turn up some incidentaloma that will get over tested and biopsied, causing many instances of unnecessary harm.*

*full disclosure: pathologists will make extra $$$ off biopsies resulting from routine whole-body MRIs. But it’s not income we want.

Jeez, like it’s not bad enough doctors have to field panicked Googles and AI bullshit. I’m sorry for you and any hapless patient taken in by this racket.

I get the patient perspective. It fucking sucks to have something wrong with you and not know what it is. I’ve been in that situation multiple times and I still am, thanks to what’s probably long COVID but who the hell knows?

This is just exploitative.

In my not at all humble opinion no one who knows what they are doing would want to do one of these tests, so there is big selection bias going on.

What do you already understand about Bayes Theorem and pretest probabilities?

A test is 99% sensitive, and 94% specific. A pretty good set of numbers. The condition is present in one out of hundred of people with the vague complaints the person has. (A very high number for many of these things.) How likely do you think it is that the test is correctly identifying the presence of the condition?

My sister, who is also “planning” to live to 120, thinks that doctors are uninformed about nutrition (unless they take the time to research it outside of their regular studies, which most don’t have the time or inclination to do) and that she can instead rely on youtube videos about experimental proof (I would put that in scare quotes but why bother) that show which supplements will really help her avoid bad diseases and conditions that she doesn’t have yet. In the meantime, she spent a week woozy and disoriented (she lives alone) and did not seek help for it, and just waited for it to go away.

She has tried to push this supplement stuff on me but I ignored her, so she got huffy and said that she would stop trying to keep me informed. So something I did really did help.

I’m with you here, this seems like a terrible idea. All of those objections seem totally valid

Additionally I can see it being used as a way of avoiding going to the doctor for people who are averse to visiting the doctor. Which might be good thing if one of things being tested is at “go to ER right now” levels. But more likely if some things are just a little elevated a they’ll be “oh everything’s ok then” where as an actual doctor will be “we need to treat these, it’s a red flag”

@dolphinboy and anyone else curious for the answer. It is not 99%, not 94%, it is only 14%, one out of seven.

I used those numbers so I could link to below where they show the math and explain it.

I’m not sure I perceive the real harm from this.

From my perspective, at least some segments of the medical community seem eager to treat persons with any number of physical and mental complaints based solely on subjective allegations with few if any objective indications. We’ll see whether the availability of this test causes such persons to act differently than they already do following their on-line “research”, interaction with support groups, etc.

I admit that my work has me interact with an atypical portion of the population. And the vast majority of care providers are not blatantly profit hungry whores. But there are enough of them out there to satisfy a great many of the “worried well.”

I’ll speak for the primary care providers - the number of primary care providers who are profit hungry whores is extremely small. Non zero yes. But tiny. No debate they want to make a decent living and are willing to work hard to do it.

Large fraction of the time the following will happen - someone like dolphinboy will get “all the data” they can, and try to bring to their caring responsible PCP. Many will … SHOULD … refuse to look at it. They didn’t order it, they didn’t think it was medically indicated, they are fools to put themselves in a position to now be responsible for the results and for offering opinions about every one of the unavoidably “abnormal” numbers. If they correctly refuse then these folk will get their answers from more dubious sources but that is on them not us. If they do review then they will have no choice but to follow up on spurious results, and/or just throw up their hands and at least try to keep the person from the more potentially harmful crap being pushed, and take the opportunity to promote actual healthy foods, exercise, and adequate regular sleep as the approach that works better than nutrition in pill or shakes form. And that time invested will, more often, fall on deaf ears, because many of the people taking these tests are thrilled THRILLED to have a diagnostic identity to embrace as the reason why. Why what? Don’t matter.

Bad enough that we get shown crazy testing ordered by chiropractors and “functional doctors” as it is, and try our best to talk folk off the crazy ledge already (even though we know we should just refuse) …

The majority, the good docs, have little chance to have a good outcome from their patients doing these tests. And the patients don’t either.

IMHO the underlying problem is that a large amount of disease in the developed world is due to an unhealthy lifestyle. The problem is that people don’t want to, or maybe can’t, follow a regimen of actual healthy food, exercise, and adequate regular sleep. Taking all the supplements in the world isn’t going to fix someone whose health problems are due to eating too much junk food and getting no exercise, but IME a significant number of people with disease processes which are ultimately due to their lifestyle don’t want to hear that.

Cue up the usual cartoon of two lines …

I struggled with IBS for decades (still kinda do.) I went out of my way to see a registered dietician because I wanted evidence-based assistance, not some homeopathic crap, and she still scammed me. Started talking about this blood test that would tell me all the foods to avoid. Wrote an order and told me to bring it to my PCP.

She charged $800.

I asked her later for research validating these tests (I think it was LEAP?) and her answer was basically “there’s no money to research this because they can’t make money off of it.”

Well, that’s terrible reasoning.

I finally went to my PCP with the order and said, “This is bullshit, right?”

He’s such a diplomatic fellow, he wouldn’t come out and say it, but I could read between the lines.

I sympathize with you all. But I do want to point out that a lot of doctors are not in line with the best evidence, either. Judging by the fact that same doctor sent me a letter recommending a low-fat diet to address slightly elevated triglycerides, and I came to this board because it didn’t seem right to me, and sure enough, the best nutritional intervention for elevated triglycerides is a low carb diet.

This isn’t unique to medical doctors, either. A lot of experts don’t keep up with the research. See also: clinical psychology.

There is no debate about that. And that is true for the best docs - evidence evolves and the universe of what there is to know is vast. Every individual will have their strengths and weaknesses and their stumbles. That was a definite stumble. Ideally one they learned from.

This sort of testing is a different sort of thing though. It is an active promotion of pathologization. The creation of fictive diseases in the making for profit.

I perceive it as overlapping greatly with MAHA and distrust of expert opinion in general. My WAG is that many of the same people opting for these tests are vaccine hesitant and believers in the healthy fat of beef tallow.

I did say the “vast majority” weren’t, didn’t I? :wink: From my vantage point, however, that tiny number can have an outsized impact.

My personal opinion is that too many people think they ought to have lives that are entirely free of physical or emotional pain. And when someone goes to a doctor with certain complaints, most doctors want to do what is in their power to relieve their patients’ discomfort. Which leads to so many people being diagnosed with and treated for physical and mental maladies with few if any clinical indicia.

I guarantee you that it is far from a tiny fraction of practitioners who readily offer diagnoses of fibromyalgia, chronic pain syndrome, chronic fatigue syndrome, undifferentiated connective tissue disorder, nonspecific autoimmune disorder, depression, anxiety, ADHD, ASD, etc. - without making any discernible effort to show how the diagnostic criteria are satisfied. Moreover, a diagnosis does not establish severity.

I place the majority of the onus on the patients desiring a magic bullet to guarantee them a pain free existence. I see no societal benefit resulting from the tests you linked to. But neither do I appreciate direct advertising of rx meds. But I do not see the solution - at least not in our economy/society. Perhaps too much weight is given to patients’ complaints. But what are doctors to do? Tell their patients they are mistaken, and should just shake it off?

Make a psychotherapy referral with a warm hand-off if possible. Explain that this is not because “it’s all in your head,” but because cognitive-behavioral pain management is pretty effective, for management of stress and anxiety, to process the humiliation, anger, and self-doubt people often experience when a medical person tells them nothing is wrong but this flies in the face of the patient’s experience of their body, to explore different options and decision-making, and because therapists get to spend more time talking with people and sometimes hear information that warrants further discussion with a medical provider.

Different genetic groups have different liver enzymes that may cause a different physical response. I can’t tell you how many black people get called “drug-seeking” when they complain of pain, or that they need a higher dose, especially when they don’t have an ongoing relationship with a PCP who can advocate for them.

Also, women’s pain or observations about their bodies are discounted more frequently. For example, I worked with a woman with intense, unrelenting pain after a uterine surgery. She was treated quite rudely and dismissively for weeks until she passed a metal surgical implement that had been left in her body. Nobody apologized to her–in fact, she was told she had to give it back because it was hospital property. On her lawyer’s advice, she did not. That’s a big example, but plenty of women have their pain dismissed as “psychological.” I’m here to say that women with endometriosis, ectopic pregnancy, fallopian torsion, and enormous fibroids hear this a lot. Sometimes their “histrionic” presentation gets written up in their chart, which makes it very hard for them to be taken seriously subsequently. Many younger women who find breast lumps get told it’s probably just dense tissue or they banged themself, but are refused imaging because they’re “too young to have breast cancer.”

I wasn’t a medical doctor, so of course I wouldn’t and couldn’t diagnose medical issues, but I could notice patterns and discrepancies and, when warranted, ask to speak with the person’s PCP, often with good, collaborative results. This is an ethical responsibility of many counseling professions–medical conditions need to be referred for rule-out, and, I’ll add, this postentially is an ongoing process.

Physical issues I identified by providing more detailed questions and reports to the medical providers of people who had been told nothing was physically wrong or diagnosed as having (only) a psychological issue: MS, Lyme, cancer recurrence, broken vertabrae, toxic medication effects, problematic medication interactions, encephalitis lethargica, Bell’s palsy, celiac, parasitic worms, detached retinas, seizure disorders, Hepatitis B, congestive heart failure, incorrect diagnoses, etc. Plus, of course, there were many people with unexplained pain that received a functional diagnosis, but could be intervened on with a combination of psychotherapy and referrals for complementary physical services. Most of the docs I worked with were glad someone was able to spend more time with their patients, and appreciated both our consultations and the techniques and conversations that I was able to have with our patients. Most would have preferred to spend more time with patients, and I wish they could.