They didn’t have printing presses back then.
But then if you want to go with semantics, then I’ll just switch to the word “Idolatry”.
Zabali_Clawbane I would argue that the people killing for them have trouble differentiating between the tangible things and the abstractions that they represent. There is also a commandment “Thou shalt not kill”, and yet they keep doing it for the 'abstractions".
As I asked miller, if I were to go piss on the Ka’aba do you think that I wouldn’t be killed?
Erek
What if I bought a car like yours parked it next to yours and then pissed on MY car. Would you slap me around a bit?
Erek
If it takes the place of a golden calf, and it is treated like a golden calf, then it might as well be a golden calf.
Erek
Cha-Ching!!! I’ve always thought that the unwritten injunction was “Thou shalt make no graven images (of other Gods).”
This is why the golden calf was a no-no, but the ark of the covenent, what with its cherubim and seraphim is hunky-dory.
Well Judaism is pretty much against even trying to define God. So making a graven image of any God would be a testament to a false God.
Well Judaism is pretty much against even trying to define God. So making a graven image of any God would be a testament to a false God.
The Ark of the Covenant is a tough example.
Ok, fine, and none of those, again with the possible exception of the crucifix count as idols. The Western Wall is a retaining wall, the Ka’aba is a meteor, and the flag is…well, a flag.
I might, but not because you pissed on your own car.
Can we make a distinction between worship and respect or honor? It is certainly possible to honor some thing or idea even to the extent of being willing to die for it, without worshipping it.
One definition of “worship” noted here is “the reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.” In the same online dictionary, “sacred” is defined as “dedicated to, or set apart for, worship of a deity.”
You would have to ask those who reverence (another alternative word to “worship”) holy sites like the Wailing Wall or Mecca, or holy objects like the Ark of the Covenant, or holy symbols like a crucifix, how what they are doing is not in violation of that commandment. I am sure they have yards of books on the subject. But these definitions would seem to preclude consideration of such secular objects as the U.S. flag.
For me, I’ve always taken this commandment (for what little consideration I have given it, being an atheist) to mean two things: don’t make or worship images of other deities, and don’t attempt to make an image of the biblical god.
Oh, sure, they fight wars over land. Everyone fights wars over land. You said people fight wars over images.
You said, “fight a war,” not “get beaten up.” But, what the hell, let’s define “war” as loosely as you’ve defined “graven” and “image.” Yes, you might get beaten up for either of those acts. But the Biblical injunction is against “worship.” People will beat you up for pissing on the flag because they place a great deal of emotional importance on their country, of which the flag is a symbol. This is not the same as “worship.” If you pissed on a picture of some guy’s mother, he’s probably going to beat you up, but that doesn’t mean he worships his mother, it just means that he cares a lot about her and doesn’t like people disrespecting her.
After handing down the Ten Commandments, God immediately turns around and commands that an altar be built to him. So evidently it’s possible to use material things as a focus for worship without falling into the sin of idolatry.
Because they cannot?
No, it is not, and you are off on another of your flights of semantic fantasy. You could probably have a merry round of condemnation for people who invest more respect in inanimate objects than you would like to see (carefully failing to distinguish between the representation and the value it represents), but you have framed the debate in a way that will waste thousands of innocent electrons to bickering over whether you know what you’re talking about.
“There’s glory for you.”
As others are doing a pretty good job dealing with (what I agree) is your misunderstanding of “graven image” and “worshipping” -
The idolatry/graven image commandment is not even remotely ignored. “Is money/your job/your home/your possessions/popularity/beauty and diet/television/etc. your idol?” is a frequent sermon (and sunday school and bible study) topic. It comes up all the time. It’s very unlikely that I’m going to make a carving, stick it in my room, and pray to it. (For one, I can’t carve at all). I can and do slip into the position where I put one of those other items in a place that occupies space or time that God should occupy or I begin to rely on one of those items in situations where I should be relying on God.
While I can’t speak to the practices of all churches, I’ve heard no shortage of talks on this topic in the churches I’ve attended or visited.
So then…we’re in agreement, then?
If you’re basing your argument on some freakish definition of “worship”, it would certainly be better to state that definition in your OP.
The Commandment in question is against bowing down and serving any image or the likeness of anything in heaven or earth or in the waters. That is, against “worshipping” the image itself. The selfsame people whom Moses was instructing bowed down before the Ark of the Covenant as an image representing G-d. Yet, clearly, reverence to the Ark was worship of G-d, and therefore not in violation of this Commandment; prayers and veneration were offered to G-d, not to the Ark itself (as had been the case with the Golden Calf). The Ark was not present to represent G-d, nor to stand in for G-d.
Likewise, worshippers at the Wailing Wall, at the Rock of the Kaaba in Mecca, with a crucifix, or before an American flag, are addressing their worship to G-d. Or are you suggesting that people don’t want you spitting on or burning the American flag because they’re expecting the flag itself to answer their prayers about the Superbowl point spread?
It’s also certainly worth noting that some religions that have “the Ten Commandments” may not even have one about graven images. There are several versions of the Ten Commandments – including two versions that don’t match exactly given in the Bible itself.
You shouldn’t be worrying about graven images, really. You should be worried about in which month you’re keeping that feast of the unleavened bread…
Yep. Orthodox believe the same, with one small catch: God became a human and walked around and touched stuff and was seen by people, so we can depict Him in that way, with icons of Christ. To attempt to make an image of God in His essence (i.e. God qua God) is both impossible and forbidden.
I dunno about worship, but I’ll look favourably on anything that can melt Nazis.
That’s a mistranslation of the Hebrew. The commandment is “Thou shalt not murder”, not “Thou shalt not kill”. If you read it as “Thou shalt not kill,” you quickly run into a contradiction- the Torah mandates the death penalty for several offenses, including murder. If no one is ever supposed to kill anyone else, how could that be carried out?
EXODUS 20:26
I love that part.
In the same book it says
20:4
These passages are from my copy of The Living Bible- Catholic Edition 1984
Actually, although this entire topic is IMO a bad excuse for a semantic nitpick, mswas has a point: “Idolatry” can mean, not merely the worship of a false god, but the putting of anything else in the place that is rightfully God’s. (Presuming you’re a believer; the idea of what an atheist or agnostic might consider ‘idolatry’ is a mind-stretcher, but one that thankfully I don’t have to deal with! ;))
Money, possessions, ‘success,’ the environment, an ideology, a sports team, teen idols (note the choice of term), movie stars, a President or other leader, the Virgin Mary, the Bible: all these can be put in the place of God, and when they are, it’s a form of idolatry.
“For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”