Worst...Economic Recovery...Ever?

Many of us here think Bush’s economic record is less-than-stellar, but I’ve run across some links in the past couple of days that has made this impression especially stark.

First is this comparison of the last five recovery periods for GDP, employment, and industrial production. According to this analysis, the current recovery ranks dead last and looks pretty lackluster. The couple problems I see are that it’s not completely clear just what the y-axis is measuring in the graphs and there’s no indication where the data is coming from (apparently NBER.org, BLS, and the Economic Report of the President, if you read the comments). Okay, not looking particularly good…

Then there’s this link that analyses “personal prosperity” (wages and salary income minus paycheck taxes and national debt, all adjusted per capita to Y2K dollars) and things just look disastrous. While I understand what the personal prosperity measure is getting at, showing that lower taxes are more than being offset by falling wages and rise in national debt, it seems a bit questionable. Still, even just considering the falling wages and salaries income per capita, things look bad, real bad.

So, is there something missing from these figures/analyses? Some reason I should be able to look at these things and say “Okay, things are bad, but not THAT bad”? Or are they even totally off-the-mark?

Thanks, that’s interesting stuff. I could see someone objecting to subtracting out the debt from PP, but even so the salary dip is very noticeable. Paycheck taxes, I assume, are computed per capita without regard to income levels. If so, the situation is a bit worse than shown, since the dip in taxes is not evenly distributed over income levels.

The chart per president down a bit on your second link is even more interesting - it shows quite clearly that we never, never should let anyone named Bush be President. (The curves look very similar.)

Also interesting, in your first link, is that though GDP growth is similar to the Bush I recession, employment growth this time is much worse. Bush I did not lower taxes to fight the recession, but what he did do worked just as well as Bush II’s massive cuts.

I seem to recall (though I’d have to look for the data) that the Bush I recession was worse than this one. And though 9/11 caused a spike, I doubt it has much impact 3 years out.

To be fair to Bush 1, he was right to do what he have done in the last few months of his presidency–nothing. It was economically correct, and helped set up Clinton nicely for him to cut the deficit; it was however proven politically disastrous for Bush 1.

I won’t even get into the details in those links because they are based on a flawed premise: That a president has a significant effect on the economy. If you want to pick it apart, you’ll need to know more about why those specific parameters were chosen (as opposed to other paramters) and how the graphs were made (eg, how was the “trough” of the recession chosen and why is that the best point to start).

This article in last Sunday’s NYT Magazine, Help Wanted. You’ll have to register but it’s free. This is a long article, but well worth the read.

Well, the problem is that Bush ends up looking bad any way you slice it. For example, let’s grant you the premise that the President can’t do jack-shit (or at least can’t do very much) to help the economy. Then the question is, why did the President propose the freakin’ most expensive stimulus package ever, one that has turned our fiscal situation upside down? One might counter-argue that, well, at least the money was given “back to the people”. But, then you run into the unpleasant fact (well, unpleasant to many of us…and likely to be unpopular to the public as a whole) that a large fraction of it went to a tiny percentage of the wealthiest people. In response to that, the standard route is to argue that these are the productive people who create the jobs. This argument itself has lots of holes in it, but the one of interest at the moment is that it flatly contradicts the original premise that the President can’t have a very significant effect on the economy.

So, I would ask the Bush folks, which is it? Can the President have a large effect on the economy and, if so, why has what must be by far the most expensive stimulus package in history brought us a fairly anemic recovery? And, if he can’t, why did he mortgage our future to give tax breaks in large part to the wealthy?

That’s not the worst, not by a long shot. The worst is that this month we had the second worst trade deficit ever. The worst? Last month.
You can’t make this shit up.
You also can’t make up how utterly incompetent Bush is:

Trade Deficit Falls to 50 bil (or, we have to look up to see down, we’re so far beneath the surface)

Partisan, me? You betcha.

jshore:

If you want to slam Bush for the deficit, you’ll get no grief from me. While one might argue that a president isn’t fully responsible for a defecit/surplus, he certainly is the most important factor.

pantom:

Why is a trade deficit bad? It would be highly unusual for the richest nation on earth not to have a trade deficit. I have a significant trade defecit with the lady who cleans my house every two weeks. But I can assure you that my financial situation is much better than hers.

You can run anything into the ground.
Half a trillion a year qualifies, in my opinion. I do believe that amounts to real money.

I think you are basing your fear of a trade deficit on the belief that trade is a zero sum game. A trade deficit can be bad and it can be good. If, as I suspect the case to be, the US is the largest agent of wealth ***creation ***in the world, a trade deficit should be natural.

I know you don’t believe that trade is a zero sum game, but its possible dor one to come to conclusions based on that belief without actually realizing it. We all know, for instance, that driving is more dangers than flying, and yet many people fear flying more.

Actually, economically speaking, it’s a question of whether the funds are used for investment or consumption. If you scroll down to the direct investment line at the latest BEA release on the current account deficit, you’ll see that investment in the US has been rising smartly as the economy has improved, which is pretty normal. But the amount for a single quarter, somewhat to the north of 17 billion, is still easily dwarfed by even so much as a single month’s worth of trade deficit, much less a quarter’s. The comparison to a year’s worth of red ink is too ridiculous for words.
So, on the evidence, I’d say we’re still running it into the ground. We’re the world’s leaders, and we should be teaching China, and Japan, who have no excuse and should have learned this lesson long ago, that open trade is a good thing. But if we have a prez who’s unwilling to do the hard job of advocating for free markets between countries, the entire world will be poorer for it, us most of all, because we have the most to lose.

FWIW, I work in an industry that reflects economic activity. About 6 months before the end of President Clinton’s term there was a noticeable down turn in the economy. That is not a political statement. It wasn’t the result of anything Clinton did or did not. The stock market was overpriced and it was going to fall. Investor gravity took it’s toll.

I also saw it in my portfolio. It wasn’t rocket science to see it coming. All you had to do was listen to investment programs to understand what was going on. When you see the heavy investors cleaing their portfolios then the fat lady is about to sing.

If not for 9/11, the recovery would have been much faster and required less capital funding to kick-start it. People don’t realize it wasn’t just the airliners that took a hit. 9/11 affected the travel industry which affected hotels, car rentals, vacation resorts, and all the service industries that feed into it. Those people bought cars which puts the auto industry in a slump. We’re all connected to each other financially.

The only thing a President can do in the short term is to release money into the market in the form of tax rebates. Again, not rocket science. This has been the only tool that has proven itself over time. We are lucky to live in these times because most of the economic mistakes have been made. I remember when wage-and-price controls were brought out. What a disaster that was. As far as I can tell, it prolonged the recession. Interest rates were in the 20 percent range. It practically killed the housing market. It sounded good, but it didn’t allow the market to correct itself.

Trade deficits are a whole new animal. Traditionally, countries representing the major economic powers relied on 2 rather uniform axioms: 1) they held enough intellectual wealth to maintain a manufacturing lead with new products, 2) well established products were eventually reproduced in other countries using cheaper labor. This worked well for the simple reason there were always new labor markets opening up so (2) never interfered with (1).

China has changed all that. Their ability to develop or copy first generation technology is backed up by cheap labor. This scenario has never occurred in the United States before. On top of that, they are building a massive transportation network along with the world’s greatest hydroelectric grid. They will have cheap energy to bolster their cheap labor. Added to this is a roadway system that can move manufacturing facilities anywhere in China. And to make matters worse, car purchases in China are going up exponentially. This will ultimately accelerate oil consumption, and that affects everyone.

Folks, bend over, it’s going to be painful. If you are having a hard time understanding this go to Wal Mart.

You don’t need to believe in a zero sum game. You just have to believe that the world economy is not growing rapidly enough to replace all the money we’re shipping out of our share of it. What are you trying to claim, that there’s some invisible magic reciprocal trade going on here? The trade deficit is the measure of whether trade is advantageous for us or not, that’s why we track it. Emptying your bank accounts and maxing your credit cards is a bad thing, no matter how bitching the new car is.

We haven’t gained something by shifting millions of people out of the technology sector due to Asian currency manipulation. We’ve lost a large consumer base, and we now rely on a number of unstable poverty stricken nations to ensure the continuance of our tech market.

Oh, and China, but what could EVER happen by relying on our chief rival to provide important portions of our workforce and to manage our IT knowledge base? I know we had no issues shipping our high tech and manufacturing jobs to the Soviet Union back during the Cold War.

I agree the trade deficit with China is unprecedented. We have shipped virtually ALL of our consumer-goods manufacturing to China. Go to a store, and TRY to find any American made:
-shoes (about 90% made in China)
-kitchen appliances (100% China)
-TV sets (China or SE Asia)
-Clothing (99% China)
The real disaster will come when FORD and GM move vehicle assembly operations to China…of course, we can all go to Law School or work at McDonald’s!

Don’t be silly. Cars are too heavy to justify shipping costs, that’s why they’re going to Mexico and parts south.

I guess I could believe you, or I could believe Paul Samuelson* who when he says, per Wikipedia

It’s also important to note that:

Granted, you will find some economists who claim that a trade defecit is bad, but I believe they will be in the minorty view. This is true of MANY economic issues where the popular wisdom is 180 deg opposite of what most economists think (eg, outsourcing or offshoring is bad).

*World renouned Economist and Winner of a Bank of Sweden Prize in Economics (often refered to as the Nobel Prize in Economics)

This site, A Multi-Country Evaluation of Trade Imbalances from The Elliott School of International Affairs of The George Washington University is another good place to learn about this topic. It’s pretty serious reading, but with patience, you can get thru it even if you don’t have a degree in economics. Be sure to read the Introduction, which starts off thusly:

From the section concerning the US:

I have to go eat dinner so I’ll post a more detailed riposte later, but I need you to note that the deficit is running at an annual rate of 580 billion (145 * 4), while annual GDP is 11,643 billion according to the latest BEA release (all of these figures can be easily seen from links at the BEA home page). That comes to 4.98%, just underneath the 5% threshold in your cite and a commonly cited figure for when things get hairy.

You also need to be very careful about extrapolating values for a metric which is highly cyclical.

I don’t see any cyclicality in that graph. If that were a stock, I’d short it. Keep in mind that the last two trade deficit numbers were the largest on record, this month’s being 50 bil and last month’s 55. Extrapolating that gets you to over 600 bil a year and to over 5% of GDP. It’s also in line with the steadily dropping trend shown by your graph. Of course, the trade deficit <> the current account deficit, which your cite correctly states is the more accurate measure. But a worsening trade deficit does, for obvious reasons, correlate closely with a worsening current account deficit, so there’s definitely reason for concern.

Warning: what follows is going to be long and complicated.

Exports are analogous to heat; an active economy inevitably throws off exports the same way an engine throws off heat. Ditto for imports: imports can be considered kind of equivalent to energy. Without imports, an economy would eventually stagnate, since no new ideas would be coming in, and competition would of course be less than optimal, as would overall welfare, as js africanus would I’m sure be happy to point out.
So, looked at in this way, having a trade deficit almost implies that you have an efficient economy, which takes in large amounts of energy and throws off only a small amount of heat, thereby converting most of its inputs into something other than heat: in economic terms, new businesses that generate more growth, or infrastructure investments that increase the economy’s potential for growth. This is definitely true of the US economy, as I’m sure we’d both agree.
The problem is that imports of goods have to be paid for, and any imports of capital that carry with them an obligation for repayment also have to be paid for. This is where the analogy breaks down. In an engine, inputs of energy result in mechanical force and heat. In an economy, imports result in investment, consumption and, eventually, more exports. The only one of the three that are analogous to mechanical force is investment. Consumption and exports are heat. Exports of course pay for imports, but consumption, if it’s financed by debt obligations, don’t. So in the case of consumption, you have a future obligation to pay for it if it hasn’t been financed through domestic savings or equity investments from abroad.
As your cite points out "Furthermore, the exchange rate in 1998 began to depreciate US dollar. If this trend continues, the United States is likely to have [a] smaller deficit. If the current account deficit continues to increase while the dollar depreciates, that would suggest [a] decline in [the] US economy’s competitiveness. In [the] long-run, this overall decline in US industries’ competitiveness would become a serious problem, since that would lead to [an] overall slowdown of the US economy, decreasing the standard of living for the US residents."
In point of fact, the US dollar really only began to seriously decline in 2002, but between 2000 and 2002 it was reasonably stable. Notice, then, that contemporaneously with the decline in our trade position shown in your graph, the dollar first peaked and then began to decline. So, that means that, for the past four years, we’ve had a declining currency combined with an increasing current account deficit, which your own cite points out implies a “decreasing standard of living for US residents.”
Your cite also says the international investment position, that is whether we are a net creditor or a net debtor, and by how much, is more important than the year by year current/capital account position. That trend is also not good, as is shown in their report about the US (see their figure 2.2 in the US section). Going by the figures in the Statistical Abstract, which your cite didn’t use in order to enable easier international comparisons, but which I’m using because it’s free ( :smiley: ), the figures shown are (table 1283, from a PDF downloadable at the Statistical Abstract home page):

1990: -245 billion current cost, -164 billion market value
2001: -1,948 billion current cost, -2,309 billion market value

GDP in 2001 was 10,082 billion, so the 2001 figures correspond (easy calculation to make) to either 19.4% or 23% of GDP that our net investment position was down that year. Given the record current account deficits we’ve run since then, that figure is bound to have gotten worse.
1990’s GDP was 5,803 billion, so the figures for that year were truly negligible. Needless to say, the sharply rising trend in the percentage by which the shortfall in our net investment position is rising relative to GDP is worrisome. As your cite says in its US section, "If the net debtor position continues to increase to a larger portion of the GDP, it would become harmful to the US economy, although it would also depend on whether the international investment debts are in equities or debts."
They go on to say that "The data on net equity and debt ratio to GDP (Figure 2.3) reveals that the international debt position of the US is more serious than the international investment position number suggests. Net debt as a percentage of GDP is approaching 20% in 1996. If this debt surpasses 20% of GDP and continuously increase, this would be bad for the economy, because that means that the US will keep borrowing from abroad, although a rapid increase in GDP growth is not expected. Therefore, it would be more difficult to repay. If the United States is in a rapid economic growth, this can be a good thing, but that is not the case for the United States."
I don’t find any data for this in the Statistical Abstract, but given the continuing increase in our deficit, I doubt that net debt as a percentage of GDP has declined at all. In a speech, Alan Greenspan said “Unlike the financing of payments from export and income receipts, reliance on borrowed funds may not be sustainable. By the end of September 2003, net external claims on U.S. residents had risen to an estimated 25 percent of a year’s GDP, still far less than claims on many of our trading partners but rising at the equivalent of 5 percentage points of GDP annually.” That’s quite a large rate of annual increase, and certainly not sustainable.
As I’ve said before, every President inherits some economic problem from his predecessor that needs solving. Carter inherited rapidly rising inflation, and failed to stop it, and so was thrown out. Reagan solved that problem, and so was re-elected, but created a large fiscal deficit. Bush I failed to solve that problem, and was canned. Clinton solved it, and was re-elected. Bush II inherited from Clinton a large current account deficit and, as we’ve seen from the above, a rapidly deteriorating investment position. He’s failed to solve it, and it can easily be argued that his fiscal profligacy has made it worse. As your own cite points out, combine this with a falling currency, and living standards will decline. All of this has happened under Bush II, as evidenced by the recent Census report that both the rate of poverty and of the number of people without health insurance has risen. And of course this has happened at the same time as the number of jobs has remained stagant.
It may not be the worst recovery ever - there was probably one in the Depression, after all, and it probably wasn’t all that hot either - but it’s certainly far from the best.

Wow, appeal to authority and to popularity, all in one post. I’m so impressed that people with vested interests in maintaining the status quo have come out in favor of maintaining the status quo. So many experts, and yet the monkey with the dart board always seems to beat them at picking stocks.

Let’s look at what your buddy actually says, shall we?

Well, if they’re “not necessarily terrible news” let’s keep right at it then. Can’t get any better than “not the worst thing that could theoretically happen, I think.” And the dollar is stable? Maybe years ago, maybe in the very long term, but the dollar’s been doing rather poorly for some time now. Furthermore, his contention that all we’re exporting is paper in return for goods and services is infantile. I export paper to Best Buy everytime I buy something there. I guess that means that if I empty my bank account for that 60" plasma TV, I should walk away feeling like they’re a bunch of suckers, since I got an item of depreciating value and they got a cash investment they can use in an appreciating manner.

The genius continues:

Well, I gess if it’s off by a few percent, that means that our deficit with China goes from 50 billion in their favor to a nice even split amenable to both parties. Hooray! Boy, I guess they must teach economists super-math, since they can make something add up this poor ol’ engineer can’t. I guess that’s why the econ majors kept washing out of the math classes I was in, they were used to a much different way of calculating figures.

I do find it a bit humorous that you cling so tightly to a tract which says that the way we’re doing things is probably “sustainable” in the short term. Even your team of geniuses can’t baldface it that this is all a good idea. Your preface suggests that trade deficits are assumed to be bad because other deficits are bad, then simply trots off hoping we won’t notice it failed to find a difference. Well, not a bad idea I guess, worked on you.

It even acknowledges trade deficits are bad, saying “One need only note the many international debt crises experienced by countries after they had run persistent, and very large trade deficits.” Then it cites counter-examples in the very near term, ignoring the “run persistent, and very large trade deficits” bit. The only thing your preface says is that liquidating your economic sectors is a good way to make some quick cash, but you’d better get out before the boat sinks. Strangely akin to what I keep saying. But hey, you can believe them, or you can believe me, like you said.