Worst Military Leader (game thread)

Hood 2
Lopez 2
Zhao Kuo 1
I felt the explanation of Hood to be utterly inadequate. Hood was a lot like Charles le Tremaire. Hood was a useless little tool, marginally acceptable as a subordinate calvary officer but a complete idiot with any amount of power. He was a backstabbing treacherous little snot, and even his much-vaunted courage was more rank stupidity.

Remember that much of his original reputation came frm the Seven Days - which was a massive loss of Confederate life which would easily have spelled doom had the Union not been saddled with McClellan. Hod was right in the lead and shattered his command achieving, well it was a strategic success, but at a massive risk.

Hood later spent his time stabbing commanders in the back. People criticize Johnson during his retreat to Atlanta, but he inflicted huge casualties on Sherman, avoided any set-piece battle where he could be drawn out, and held him at bay before Atlanta’s defenses, nearly pulling off a huge political victory in the Northern electorate. Johnson’s defense was briliant, ably dodging a superior force led by an extremely experienced stragetic genius.

Hood intrigued behind Johnson’s back, sent outright lies to Richmond while arguing that Johnson should retreat to his face, and upon taking command lost Atlanta. Sherman delayed a bit before taking it, but Hood’s immediate, rash assaults effectively sealed the campaign. He couldn’t attack again and left

Even worse, after retreating he somehow persuaded himself that his soldiers were just too scared, and moved north as Sherman moved south. Now, at this point he was attacking an enemy who outnumbered him, and who were commanded by the reoubtable George Thomas. First Thomas let Hood blled himself dry, and then when Hood insisted on advancing (throwing his men into the meatgrinder with no thought of tactics or plan of victory beyond, “Charge!”) counterattacked and utterly demolished Hood. That army never did anything for the rest of the war. It was so badly hurt that it simply dissolved for weeks.

In short, he was a general whose major accomplishment was massacring his own men, who destroyed two major strategic campaigns, and ably knifed the career of one of the COnfederacy’s top commanders. One or two more Hoods and even McClellan would have won.

(Personally, I think McClellan should have taken the “win” here. Ya’ll let him off way too easily. He combined poor military judgement with a terribly attitude, cowardice, and too much ambition)

However. Hood was a giant loser, utterly beyond his depth. But I can’t compare him to Charles the Bald. Charles is Hood plus. Or maybe Hood minus.

Onto the next -

Lopez was rash and a bit crazy, but to be fair, he was under massive stress, facing down huge numbers of the enemy (Good lord, it’s like saying that Cuba was located on an island in the Rio Grande and still held out against the U.S. and Mexico for 5 years). Paraguay actually acquitted itself extremely well, and Lopez could hardly agree to a treaty which amounted to total disarmament. That would have rendered them completely defenceless - very similar to an action Elphinstone is rightly criticized for!
And finally -

Zhao Kuo wasn’t a very experienced. Supposedly his father complained about his lack of military knowledge, his willingness ignore losses and focus entirely on theory.

My response? Duh

His father is the idiot here. Zhao Kun never commanded an army. He’d spent his whole life studying the theory. Had he a chance to practice military command BEFORE being handed a huge army and pitted against the best commanders the powerful Qin state could field, he might have learned what to do. Yes, he lost and badly, but he was a kitten sent out to face a Lion. He might have become a Tiger himself had he been allowed to grow. And kittens are known for teasing and playing with the far-more-serious elders…

The results from Round 29 of voting:

John Bell Hood - 10

Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna, Zhao Kuo - 6 each
Charles Alexander of Lorraine, Francisco Solano López - 4 each

The boldfaced leader(s) above are eliminated. That leaves the following:

Abdel Hakim Amer: Panicked, lost Sinai in 1967
Luigi Cadorna: Lost twelve consecutively; hated, cruel
Charles Alexander of Lorraine: Sustained career of incompetence
Charles le Temeraire: Rash rather than “Bold”
William George Keith Elphinstone: Lost an army in Afghanistan
Francisco Solano López: Almost unmade Paraguay
Arthur Percival: Surrendered Singapore to Japan
Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna: “Napoleon of the West”? Ha!
Zhao Kuo: Became idiom for “bad general”

Eliminated:

Ulysses S. Grant
William T. Sherman
Pyrrhus of Epirus
Benedict Arnold
James II of England
Earl of Cardigan
Cloudesley Shovell
Douglas MacArthur
William Halsey
George A. Custer
Curtis LeMay
Lord Chelmsford
George Tryon
Geoffrey Spicer-Simson
Benjamin F. Butler
Xerxes I of Persia
Ernest J. King
Gaius Terentius Varro
John A. McClernand
Daniel Sickles
Christian de Castries
Maximilian von Prittwitz
Rodolfo Graziani
William Westmoreland
Crassus
William Calley
Carlo di Persano
Heinrich Himmler
William H. Winder
Ratko Mladić
Paul D. Harkins
Oreste Baratieri
Romanus IV of Byzantium
Varus
Hermann Goering
Zinovy Rozhestvensky
William Hull
George B. McClellan
Judson Kilpatrick
Thom Karremans
Ambrose Burnside
Gaius Claudius Glaber
Douglas Haig
Braxton Bragg
Duke of Buckingham
Maurice Gamelin
Horatio Gates
Manuel Fernandez Silvestre
Nicias
Tiberius Sempronius Longus
Frederick William Stopford
Napoleon III
Philip VI
James Ledlie
John Bell Hood

Same rules for the next round, which will end at noon EST on Weds. Feb. 2.

Ahh, down to the hard core. Difficult decisions ahead.

I guess I’ll go with Zhao Kuo - 2.

Losing a single campagn to a famous general isn’t enough at this point

Charles Alexander of Lorraine - 2.

An incompetent, and reliably so, but not as memorable as some of the others.

Finally, Francisco Solano López -1.

Flamboyantly insane to be sure, but his insanity was more political (taking on, well, everyone) than strictly military.

Zhao Kuo - 2
Charles Alexander of Lorraine - 2
Abdel Hakim Amer - 1

I missed last round! However, I agree with the choice eliminated :slight_smile:

Charles Alexander of Lorraine - 2
Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna - 2
Francisco Solano López - 1

Zhao Kuo - 2
Charles Alexander - 2
Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna - 1

Sticking with:

Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna – 2
Charles Alexander of Lorraine – 2

Adding:

Zhao Kuo – 1

Zhao Kuo - 2 Votes
Francisco Solano López -2 votes
Charles Alexander of Lorraine -1 vote

How about some details and examples on the insults to Hood? You are doing nothing but repeating the lies and distortions of Wiley Sword and Thomas Connelly, both have been proven to be liars and charlatans, destroying the reputation of JB Hood just to feather their own nests.

Hood was a great general, from cavalry in Texas in the 1850s up to and including the Tennessee Campaign, which ended disasterously because of inept and indifferent subordinates.

Hood never backstabbed anyone, and if there was a butcher in the Civil War, it was Joe Johnston, who executed more men than even Braxton Bragg, and needlessly butchered 3,000 men at Bentonville even after admitting that the war was lost.

Again, you throw out invectives at Hood but give no examples. Don’t simply parrot Wiley Sword, give us some credible primary source evidence of what you contend.

I felt the explanation of Hood to be utterly inadequate. Hood was a lot like Charles le Tremaire. Hood was a useless little tool, marginally acceptable as a subordinate calvary officer but a complete idiot with any amount of power. He was a backstabbing treacherous little snot, and even his much-vaunted courage was more rank stupidity. Where was Hood only marginally acceptable as a cavalry commander? WHo and where did he backstab anyone? If you are suggesting Joe Johnston, please give specific examples of what he was saying to Richmond authorities that was any different than what Joe Wheeler, William Hardee and AP Stewart were saying about Johnston’s failing tactics.

Remember that much of his original reputation came frm the Seven Days - which was a massive loss of Confederate life which would easily have spelled doom had the Union not been saddled with McClellan. Hod was right in the lead and shattered his command achieving, well it was a strategic success, but at a massive risk. Hood was following the orders of Robert E Lee when he led the attack on Porter at Gaines’ Mill. What was he supposed to do, disobey Lee?

Hood later spent his time stabbing commanders in the back. Hood did not. He simply was reporting the truth to Richmond and likely follwing instructions given to him People criticize Johnson during his retreat to Atlanta, but he inflicted huge casualties on Sherman, Johnston did NOT inflict heavy casualties on Sherman. Sherman was playing Johnston like a piano, marching steadily toward Atlanta and propping up Lincoln’s fading popularity as the November elections approached. avoided any set-piece battle where he could be drawn out, and held him at bay before Atlanta’s defenses, Held him at bay? Johnston retreated over 100 miles in 90 days, allowing Sherman to five miles from central Atlanta nearly pulling off a huge political victory in the Northern electorate. Johnson’s defense was briliant, ably dodging a superior force led by an extremely experienced stragetic genius. Johnston accomplished nothing but ensuring the loss of Atlanta and the loss of Confederate independence.

Hood intrigued behind Johnson’s back, He did notsent outright lies to Richmond Everything he reported was 100% true while arguing that Johnson should retreat to his face, only when Johnston had taken an untenable position at Cassvilleand upon taking command lost Atlanta. Hood gallantly held Atlanta for 60 days while Johnston surrendered thousands of square miles of Georgia without raising a hand to stop it Sherman delayed a bit before taking it, Nonsense, Sherman got his nose bloodied and that’s why it took him 60 days to outmuscle Hood but Hood’s immediate, rash assaults effectively sealed the campaign. **More nonsense, what was Hood supposed to do, surrender the second most important city in the Confederacy when he had been ordered by Richmond to do everything possible to save it?**He couldn’t attack again and left

Even worse, after retreating he somehow persuaded himself that his soldiers were just too scared, and moved north as Sherman moved south. **Still more nonsence. Hood never called any soldier a coward, he criticized Joe Johnston for turning an offensive army into a garrison force. To the contrary, Hood repeatedly complimented the bravery and courage of the soliders of the AOT.**Now, at this point he was attacking an enemy who outnumbered him, and who were commanded by the reoubtable George Thomas. First Thomas let Hood blled himself dry, and then when Hood insisted on advancing (throwing his men into the meatgrinder with no thought of tactics or plan of victory beyond, “Charge!”) counterattacked and utterly demolished Hood. Hood attacked Schofield at Franklin because Cheatham had allowed Schofield’s escape at Spring Hill. Hood must hit Schofield at Franklin because he was in the process of escaping again, this time to Nashville. After Franklin Hood invested Nashville and Beuaregard, Seddon, Bragg and Davis approved. It was a final grasp at victory to liberate Tennessee, but more importantly, to force a retrograde by Sherman That army never did anything for the rest of the war. It was so badly hurt that it simply dissolved for weeks. **This is a ridiculous statement. Check the order of battle at Nashville and at Bentonville and you’ll see many corps, divisions and brigades from Nashville founght at Bentonville. Johnston butchered 3000 men at Bentonville and wrote in his memoirs that he knew the war was lost before he attacked Sherman. Talk about a commander that slaughtered his own men for no reason…Johnston even admitted it! **

In short, he was a general whose major accomplishment was massacring his own men, who destroyed two major strategic campaigns, and ably knifed the career of one of the COnfederacy’s top commanders. One or two more Hoods and even McClellan would have won.

(Personally, I think McClellan should have taken the “win” here. Ya’ll let him off way too easily. He combined poor military judgement with a terribly attitude, cowardice, and too much ambition)

However. Hood was a giant loser, utterly beyond his depth. But I can’t compare him to Charles the Bald. Charles is Hood plus. Or maybe Hood minus.

Quote feature. Please.

Sorry for the delay in tallying.

The results from Round 30 of voting:

Charles Alexander of Lorraine - 11

Zhao Kuo - 9
Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna - 5
Francisco Solano López - 4
Abdel Hakim Amer - 1

The boldfaced leader(s) above are eliminated. That leaves the following:

Abdel Hakim Amer: Panicked, lost Sinai in 1967
Luigi Cadorna: Lost twelve consecutively; hated, cruel
Charles le Temeraire: Rash rather than “Bold”
William George Keith Elphinstone: Lost an army in Afghanistan
Francisco Solano López: Almost unmade Paraguay
Arthur Percival: Surrendered Singapore to Japan
Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna: “Napoleon of the West”? Ha!
Zhao Kuo: Became idiom for “bad general”

Eliminated:

Ulysses S. Grant
William T. Sherman
Pyrrhus of Epirus
Benedict Arnold
James II of England
Earl of Cardigan
Cloudesley Shovell
Douglas MacArthur
William Halsey
George A. Custer
Curtis LeMay
Lord Chelmsford
George Tryon
Geoffrey Spicer-Simson
Benjamin F. Butler
Xerxes I of Persia
Ernest J. King
Gaius Terentius Varro
John A. McClernand
Daniel Sickles
Christian de Castries
Maximilian von Prittwitz
Rodolfo Graziani
William Westmoreland
Crassus
William Calley
Carlo di Persano
Heinrich Himmler
William H. Winder
Ratko Mladić
Paul D. Harkins
Oreste Baratieri
Romanus IV of Byzantium
Varus
Hermann Goering
Zinovy Rozhestvensky
William Hull
George B. McClellan
Judson Kilpatrick
Thom Karremans
Ambrose Burnside
Gaius Claudius Glaber
Douglas Haig
Braxton Bragg
Duke of Buckingham
Maurice Gamelin
Horatio Gates
Manuel Fernandez Silvestre
Nicias
Tiberius Sempronius Longus
Frederick William Stopford
Napoleon III
Philip VI
James Ledlie
John Bell Hood
Charles Alexander of Lorraine

Same rules for the next round, which will end at noon EST on Fri. Feb. 4.

Will we hear from a passionate defender of Zhao Kuo once he’s voted out?

I doubt that.

He may have only lost one battle…but BOY did he lose it!

Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna - 2
Francisco Solano López - 2
Zhao Kuo - 1

Francisco Solano López - 2
Zhao Kuo - 2
Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna -1

Zhao Kuo - 2
Santa Anna - 2
Luigi Cadorna - 1 (just like a baseball player with lots of home runs in the 90s isn’t as impressive as one with similar stats from the 60s, a terrible general in WWI just doesn’t stand out as much).

Luigi Cadorna - 2
Zhao Kuo - 2
Santa Anna - 1

Zhao Kuo - 2 Votes
Abdel Hakim Amer - 2 votes
Charles le Temeraire -1 vote

Sticking with:

Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna – 2
Zhao Kuo – 2

Adding:

Arthur Percival – 1