(sigh) Having the additional troops on the ground will most likely eliminate any need for a “strong show of deadly force”. Unarmed looters will be dissuaded by the presence of large numbers of law enforcement personnel. Armed looters who resist or otherwise pose a threat of violence would be subject to use of deadly force under existing policies, and no one, incluing me will shed a tear for them.
OK, so we’re apparently agreed that news of suspected looters being slaughtered indiscrimately would increase the risk of a general insurrection, fostering even more chaos and further hampering the rescue effort. Thus, not especially useful. Glad we could straighten that out. I guess there’s nothing left to argue here, then. 
Bullshit. There are people in this thread who are advocating the indiscriminate shooting of anyone in the street with stolen property. One poster even indicated that he would consider delaying the rescue of children in order to pursue and kill someone running down the street with a Gamecube.
Not that it’s ok to kill people in the act of stealing Gamecubes either.
So how was DtC’sstatement a strawman? Sounds fairly apt. He says shot for possessing stolen property, you say caught in the act of stealing. I agree with him - stealing is wrong and should be punished appropriately. Shooting people for stealing is inappropriate. Looting should be prevented as much as possible, but as a lower priorty to making sure that people are physically safe.
Order of priorities:
- People are physically safe (out of imminent danger, with basic necessities of shelter, food, clothing).
…1a) People are safe from being victimized by violent crimes - Social order is maintained
- People’s stuff is safe
- Twinkies are distributed
It’s not so hard, is it?
Jesus, leave a thread for 30 minutes and all of a sudden I’m supposedly advocating shooting people getting diapers and baby formula?
Okay, since a few people here (not all, and you know who you are, and thanks for reading the black part of what I wrote, not the white space around it) seem to be unable to grasp what is going on:
People are hungry. People have no basic supplies. So people have been breaking into stores to get food, diapers, baby formula. Okay, fine. I’ve got no problem with that. I’d do it in a heartbeat were I in that situation.
Other people are breaking into stores and taking anything not nailed down. They should be, at minimum, arrested, but that requires sufficient manpower. They may be impeding humanitarian efforts, but primarily by making it difficult for those who truly need supplies to get them.
However, there’s a third group that is taking guns – or taking along the guns they already had – and shooting at people. Shooting at cops. Shooting at helicopters. Robbing people at gunpoint. Creating total anarchy. Getting in the way of the people who are trying to save lives. THOSE are the people who I have absolutely no pity for, no sympathy for, not even any desire to rescue. They’re acting like rabid animals, running around causing anarchy and chaos. Yes, I’m calling them animals. That’s not a racially-dependent term, either, it’s IMO an accurate description of their behavior. I really don’t give a rats ass if they have three eyes and purple skin; if they’re shooting at the folks trying to do a critical humanitarian job, as far as I’m concerned shooting them will serve a higher purpose. Kill a few dozen to save many thousands who otherwise may well die – what is wrong with that tradeoff? They obviously have no concern for human life; why should we treat them with kid gloves?
And I think I have a major dog in this fight – I just moved away from New Orleans at the end of July. I didn’t want to leave; my husband had to take a job a thousand miles away, and it took him a year to pry me out of NOLA because I love that city so damn much. I’ve got a pretty good idea of what being out in that heat and humidity for days without adequate food and water and medical care can do to people, a damn sight better than those of you bitching at me for being heartless.
And because I know how it feels, I’m afraid for the people who are least able to cope with the lawless underclass delaying humanintarian efforts. I don’t want to see babies and elderly people and people who need medication die because the lawless underclass that already existed in New Orleans gains control of the streets and prevents assistance from reaching them. Up to this point, the bad guys been pretty much contained to certain areas of town, but now they’re trying to take over completely. It’s going to take a strong, heavily armed military presence and a willingness to do what needs to be done to get control back from them. If it’s not done, then the actions of a few dozen or a few hundred may cause the deaths of potentially many, many thousands of people. What is so heartless about that scenario? What is so heartless about wanting to do whatever it takes to save the most people possible, before the heat and humidity and disease and lack of medical care solve the problem for us?
Sweet, I’ve always wanted some slaves. And my neighbor who coveted my wife needs a good stoning. Can I use lead bricks for that or just natural rocks?
Presumably they will disappear. One strategy is not to allow mob mentality to take over. You do have a choice in the matter
Indeed? Let’s review:
Response from Dio:
I wasn’t talking about “summary execution of anyone in the streets with stolen merchanise.” I was talking about someone stealing MY property, and how I may permissbly react.
Here’s the problem, Hentor, as has been stated many times. Those who were engaged in 1) and 1a) are now totally engaged in 2) directly as a result of the chaos created by the looters. How many people have already died because police are no longer doing search and rescue? How would you stop the looting and firing upon rescue workers?
I don’t know, I thought it was pretty funny. Kinda puts all the “news” coverage of the last month in perspective.
Right, by whipping out guns and shooting people who are already in a panicky situation. That sounds likes a real good idea. I wonder why no one thought of that? It’s ingenious.
And what do you hope to do about the looters and shooters? Crying and screaming and gnashing your teeth will do jack shit. It’s a waste a time and energy that could be spent on better, more constructive things.
I thought the hurricane caused the chaos. Are you suggesting that everything would be orderly but for the looting?
I don’t think that’s even true. I think that search and rescue is continuing.
How would you stop the trespassing and firing upon rescue workers? Or would you simply hand out twinkies to the trespassers, you pinko.
Good post Mama Tiger. I think people in all these related threads are arguing different things and making strawmen like it is a Wizard of Oz convention.
I lived in New Orleans, love the city, and know it well. New Orleans has always had that lawless underclass that is ready to explode into anarchy given the opportunity. Even when things were normal, you could see things happening from them that you don’t see in normal cities.
The point that I would like to add is that anyone familiar with New Orleans should have seen this coming. I did and I posted about it. Looting itself isn’t the primary problem. You can talk all day about how it is ok to steal diapers. That is fine. What I am talking about is looting not related to survival. If you see a group of people grab a forklift and break into a hotel or steal guns, then you know those are people that are going to give you serious problems in the days ahead.
We need more troops on the ground to outgun them and it will take some deadly force to restore order. Things will get more desperate as people as people get hungry, thirsty, and contacted diseases from drinking contaminated water.
Names?
No, no… we need to UNDERSTAND the looters. Keep the National Guard MPs away. I propose we mobilize counselors, therapists, mediators, and facilitators from around the country. We need to get these poor, misunderstood armed, violent looters the help they need.
Not me. Once they’ve already broken in and grabbed it, they should be left alone. You’re not really preventing anything at that point.
Armed soldiers prepared to shoot if people disregard their warnings to cease and desist? You bet.
Yes, indeed. People in this thread are conflating simple looters of merchandise with the armed gangs installing mob rule in parts of the city right now.
The looters aren’t the problem right now. There’s much worse going on in N.O. right now, and it’s not much making the national news.
That’s the deal. People who are attempting to focus on doing the more “constructive things” are being thwarted by those shooting at them. No doubt the “constructive things” need to be addressed, and it would be much easier if the shooters were removed from the equation. The waste of time and energy is being introduced by people shooting at those trying to accomplish “constructive things”.
Say I want to rescue 1500 people, but one guy with a gun is shooting at me. Do I just say, “Sorry you 1500, I’m out of here” and leave, or eliminate the threat of the shooter and carry on with my rescue attempts?
The problem Mama Tiger isn’t with you, who understands the situation and are able to view it clearly. My problem is what the rest of the country’s seeing and will see if “they” start shooting people; unless they like you have, clearly explains what’s going on and the difference between the groups and sub-groups. While you are able to separate the groups, most people can’t or won’t and there’s the problem. If this thread is any indication of the mood of the country concerning the state of New Orleans, god help us all, when the shit hits the fan; all in living color.
Most people are decent folk and I highly doubt that people who were looking for food and smash and grabs are now arming themselves shooting at copters, because most people don’t have it in them, but they’re the ones that are mostly likely going to get shot first…wrong place at the wrong time. That’s the way it always is.
I’m not in mood for another series of riots in this country, because our leaders and media are unable to explain what the hell is going on in New Orleans. All it’s going to take is a National Guardsman mistakeningly shooting an unarmed black person with a stereo or worst, a case of bottled water or diapers and it’s burning time again. Right now, our leaders including the President should be explaining to the country, EXACTLY what you did over and over again, until people get what’s going on in New Orleans. Get tough, protect lives, but damnit, this country has a history of armed response towards African-Americans, and that needs to addressed before you start opening up on them.
How many times are we as a nation, going to do this dance; before we learn the steps?
The chaos I was referring to was the breakdown of social order, as cited by me above.
Of course the Hurricane created the devastation, but the looters are only making it worse. As a thought experiment, imagine if everyone who was trapped in this disaster went about trying to help others, rather than steal from them and shoot guns at them. Unlikely, I know, but not impossible. It becomes clear that stealing weapons and drugs, and endangering the lives of those who are trying to help, is not a morally neutral act; rather, it is making the situation worse for everyone.
Of course it is. But for 1500 police officers it is not, as cited by me above.
Is it not fair to assume that those 1500 trained safety officers might have saved a life or two if allowed to continue rescue operations?
OK then. I was simply disagreeing with you and asking for your solution to the problem. No need to call me names. If my tone seemed hostile, or somehow caused you aggravation, I apologize. Having said that, I am unclear what your response actually means, as it seems to mirror my question.