No, Hentor. When I say “looter”, I mean an individual engaged in the practice of looting and general lawlessness. I know it would fit your template much better for me and others to admit that we are raging racists and that we are using “looter” when we mean “those damned black people.” But it’s not the case.
I hope they remembered to steal some batteries!
That was the laugh of the day. Thank you.
No, that they don’t need to bring up race at all. Race isn’t a problem, only actions.
Rather then informing people all the reasons we’re not doing this for, how about explaining the reasons we are doing them? “Force is neccessary to restore order because people are violating the law and adding to the chaos already in the city.” Something like that, not a freaking disclaimer. Is that going to really change opinons of hard core bigots, on either side? Or will it dredge up more morass of the past and lead to more problems?
And in the real world, race is a problem especially if people have a history of being treated badly by law enforcement and are now about to shot, perhaps en masse…on National Television. You may believe it’s unimportant, but I feel you are being naive.
I would expect the same insight and empathy given if law enforcement was to enter “Little Japan” and started rounding up loads of Japanese people and tossing them it jail, without explaining what the hell’s going on. Do your job, but make sure the public is reassured they’re not witnessing the same shit they did a generation or two ago and ARE being singled out because of their actions, not because they happen to be there and their race.
There’s nothing more cancerous to this country than the thought that if the looters were white, they would be treated differently. It isn’t a sign of weakness or pandering, to reassure people who have been historically treated badly, that this isn’t one of those times. It’s a small thing to do, especially when the bullets start flying.
Your beef is the disclaimer? I don’t care what you say, but say something before you start shooting black people on national television. You don’t get it. This isn’t about any hardcore bigots, it’s about average people who somehow manage to keep it buried and under control, and function. They will lose control if the National Guard starts shooting black people, it will be too much; unless it made clear the reasons why.
Is a disclaimer, going to cause more damage than saying nothing or trying to bulldoze over people’s concerns of abuse? Dredge up more morass of the past? What do you think’s going to be dreadged up once they start shooting? You say the past, as if it’s a hundred years ago; lots of people are still alive and remember when hoses and dogs were turned on people. When the cops cracked the heads of any black person that was within reach…they haven’t forgetten that. Hell most of use who grew up in the sixities still remember.
Do some of these armed guys need to be stopped? Sure, the problem is no one as I far I know is bothering to make the distinction between looters, and armed felons and are starting getting people into the mindset, that this must be done to restore order. Without that, all you’re going to have is people thinking this is standard treatment when black folk get too uppity, toss in a few comments about animals and savages and your stew is ready.
I promise you, if any “iffy” shooting of black people in New Orleans happens before the leadership clearly explains what’s going on and why it’s necessary for armed response and you’ll see parts of this country burn…again.
I don’t get you guys, a simple gesture of humanity and empathy, for the people that this directly effects and the Nation in general would go a long way to defusing this timebomb…even if the troops eventually have to open fire.
This needed to be said. Thanks, holmes.
This argument is silly. If the plasma screen has no value, then no one will trade for it. If people are lining up to trade one for food (morons I might add), then the plasma screen obviously holds value.
Dio, please don’t be vague when addressing posters. Regarding the gamecube thing, please name names.
Personally I think Steve hit it on the head. People in the act of taking non survival related items, and failing to disperse are the ones I advocate shooting. No need to kill them, a kneecap shot will do fine. Course they might fall over and drown, but what can you do.
Value’s in the mind of the person who wants it, not the person who has it.
Not to get too class-oriented here, but there’s plenty of instances where people in poverty will place a premium on a plasma screen TV than, say, books in the house or a college fund.
And President Bush should then calmly explain to the nation that the reason the troops are in New Orleans is to fight the looters on their home ground and keep the rest of America safe from looters. 
World Eater… you’re making a hell of an assumption that logic has anything to do with it. You might think a plasma screen is useless at this time, as we all do, but somebody might think it’s worth something.
From the vantage point of my living room, I see that most of the city is flooded. Power lines are down, there’s widespread damage. If you’re on the ground I don’t know if it’s possible to know that.
People are in a frenzied state and doing all kinds of bizarre things because they are panicked and frightened out of their minds. Logic, I think, kicks in once those Maslovian necessities are taken care of.
True, but someone swiping a plasma screen is an actual act. The assumption that they’re going to trade it to feed an orphanage is speculation. It still remains that the situation would be better off if they weren’t running around swiping the things.
Well I feel you’re going over the top. Yipee.
And if it was in Iowa, would we have to go over Waco and the Whiskey rebellion because they were white? How about just noting that people are breaking the law and thats why they are going to jail? Do we really need a fourth grade explination? “Well kids, these people aren’t bad for being black. The police aren’t arresting/shooting them because they are attempting to disenfranchise them and limit them to second class citizens. Everyone is equal no matter what their race, creed, gender, sexual orientation or dietary choices.” Gah! Gimme, “Here we see scenes of police arresting/shooting looters.”
And anyone who is/was going to make snap judgements is going to have their outlook changed because the reporters say so? Now who’s being naive?
Well, I remember the ‘Rodney King’ verdict…
And I don’t get you guys, who think that a long complex sociological issue can be succinctly explained by CNN and expect people to pay any attention when an accurate dipiction of events would be more direct and informative.
I can agree with this.
The crux of the debate here is how much plasma screens contribute to survival. People obviously vary on this, but I say pretty much zero.
You are assuming people steal because they desire to posses the item they’re stealing. I do not believe this is always the case. Some people steal just to steal. It’s not that they necessarily want or need the item… they just want to steal.
I wouldn’t be surprised if some people felt like they were missing out on something if they didn’t.
Goddamn, I can’t believe I’m getting involved in this rip-roaring fight but I guess I gotta grow a thicker skin sometime.
Dio, you keep setting up emotional strawmen and I for one am sick and tired of it. “Oh, what happens if there’s a baby in the way? Or five babies? Oh dear, oh dear!”
It is *not * ok to loot. What you end up with is disorder, chaos, and lawlessness, wherein, as has been stated, the rescuers can’t do their job. You get a whole bunch of tough strong guys that can loot and steal, and then on the other side there’s the seniors, the sick, the injured, the weak, and the children who can’t loot and steal and who aren’t getting what they need.
The city is in chaos and we sure as fuck need martial law, and if that means shooting people, SO BE IT. I’m not implying we should shoot people simply for running down the street with a TV. But damnit, if they’re blocking a hospital, or interfering with rescue operations, sure as shit they should be warned, then shot. Do it a few times and people start to realize someone’s in charge. Right now everyone’s running wild because no one’s in charge and a lot of them are just scared. Another poster said, “If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem”, and I can’t see a clearer case than this one.
I cannot believe anyone is defending these scumbucket looters. It was 24 hours after the storm! They were not starving, they did not immediately need their stupid TVs or their DVDs…they should have been making plans to get out. If you’re gonna steal, steal backpacks & camping equipment along with your food for use in getting out.
No way, these people didn’t steal because they needed to, or because they were desperate for this stuff. They stole because they’re greedy rotten thieving bastards who wait for their neighbor to go down before kicking him in the head.
Loot?
Well, okay, it’s only food.
Hey, why are you taking that radio!
I guess it must be edible.
[shoves radio down throat]
According to CNN and other reports, the lawlessness continues to escalate. Gangs of armed men are raping (and sometimes killing) women in New Orleans.
Diogenes, would it be okay with you if the governor of Louisiana asked President Bush to send in the military, with orders to stop these gangs by any means necessary, including deadly force? In other words, by shooting them in the head with assault rifles, until all of them are either dead, disabled, or on their knees, with weapons dropped?
Amazingly, I’m not entirely sure that you will unreservedly agree with this. Assuming that you do, though, can you accept the possibility that an armed, aggressive response to the first evdence of lawlessness (looting of nonessentials, robbery of hospitals) might have deterred those who have now progessed to armed gang rape and murder?
Oh, here’s the CNN cite. You’ll note that it doesn’t mention the race of the rape-gangs. Is it okay if the authorities respond with force, even if the attackers are African-American? After all, that might get misconstrued, make people upset, and cause rioting.