Some feminists have claimed penetration is in itself a violent act. They hardly represent the majority, but that’s why it’s so difficult to generalize about feminism. Each individual woman has her own view of what that means. This is markedly obvious from a generational perspective, but even within generations, there are differing views of what feminism is, and some factions are quite hostile toward one another. It’s like trying to define what it means to be a Republican or a Democrat - it’s going to mean different things to different people. Maybe one person resonates especially powerfully with foreign policy, and another person cares more about economics. These opinions about what issues are most important are usually grounded in our own personal experiences. Personally, my pet issues are sexual assault and gender norms because these are two issues I have seen have a detrimental impact on many, many people.
This is one reason it’s so irksome to see folks generalizing about ‘‘feminists’’ because they are assuming an entire set of beliefs or attitudes that I may or may not hold. I don’t hate men, resent them for their sexual attraction toward women, or despise masculine traits. There are some feminist issues where I have no idea how I feel, and certainly my feminist husband and I don’t always see eye to eye (he has a much bigger problem with porn than I do, personally.)
So, I admit it seems like kind of a WTF question, urbanredneck, but at least you are bothering to ask. Any attempt to understand goes far in my book.
As Spice Weasel stated, feminism does not speak with one voice. Anyone with a passing interest would understand that, and it seems that the ones who are most dismissive of women’s rights are the least to understand.
It needs to be noted that in this very thread, no one is espousing such radical feminism, yet this is the definition you seem to have stuck in your mind. After you posted your first comment on sexual attraction a number of guys have posted that they consider themselves feminists have stated that they can feel sexual attraction and still be able to control their brain. Female posters have stated that their husbands have not had that part of their brain ripped out. Yet, it’s still “confusing” to you. Why?
Your question has been asked and answered, yet you are refusing to understand. What is the reason for that? At some point, it’s no longer the other person’s responsibility to explain, it’s your responsibility to try to understand. (Unless you don’t care, which I suspect may be the case.)
Let’s go back to the post in question. You posted it on a public message board, so you must not realize how offensive it is not only for women but for men as well.
There are so many really, really horrible assumptions here.
First horrible assumption is that men’s brains are hardwired and their nature can’t be changed. Men can’t control themselves so we have to bundle women’s bodies up in burlap. If you don’t agree with that, then what exactly is the difference between those who advocate the burqa and you?
You, yourself, can control yourself in public with the right situation. If the hot girlfriend of a Hell’s Angel accidently flashed herself at you right now and her biker boyfriend was scowling at you, watching your reaction, what would you do? You damn well know that you are going to avert your eyes. Likewise for your pastor’s wife. See? You don’t have to give up the man card just to exercise common curtesy.
Why is it that you can control this part of your brain when the tits belong another guy’s wife/girlfriend but you can’t when they’re on a woman by herself? Is it that you have a basic respect for other guys where you don’t have a similar respect for women?
Tell me this. Exactly how long would a care giver last, if he couldn’t learn to control this tendency to become a babbling idiot when exposed to the breasts of a mentally challenged, but physically developed 14-year-old girl? The reptilian part of the brain doesn’t place a check there. The cerebral cortex does.
I’m working right now with my six-year-old son on teaching him that not all emotions need to demonstrated in public. Don’t care if you feel angry, but control it. Are you claiming less self-control than a child?
Second, you are saying boorish behavior is excusable and acceptable. We’ve had a couple of zillion threads here in which women say that unwanted sexual attention is not cool. What exactly is “thank you!” if not unwanted sexual attention?
Do you not see the difference between you wife being happy that you like her tits and some random stranger confronted with you getting turned on?
Yet, you are going to expect that others control their sexual desires. How many times have you had men get excited about seeing your genitals while you’re showering at the gym? None, right? But guess what? There is a non-zero percentage of men are attracted to other men. You’re claiming that men are unable to contain their sexual desire yet we have damn good evidence that gay men are able to hide theirs.
Right, because the only reason to judge a woman is on her dress, right?
Wow. I have to conclude that since your definition of “feminist” is someone who is all for “equal rights, equal pay, equal opportunity, and all that” and that you strongly do not identify yourself as a feminist, that you do not support that. Good to know this.
No. We simply act civilized. And show the same level of respect to women that all men are capable of showing other men. That’s all. Is that really too much?
Sweet Jesus. Do you really not see the distinction between sexual attraction and objectification?
As for “why so many feminist women dress so dumpy,” I hardly know where to begin. How many feminists do you actually know? How are their sartorial choices related to their ideology (and how do you draw this conclusion)? And what does it have to do with you anyway? Do you think women should dress to please men? If so, why? Should men also dress to please women? If not, why not?
I agree with the above post that we as men should never objectify women or support those who do. Their is a right way and a wrong way to deal with the sight of a beautiful woman. Growing up I had some very immature and wrongful thought on women that have taken time for me to get rid of. I’ve still got a ways to look beyond seeing a woman as a woman and not just a person and who have their own issues which may or may not be gender based.
Yeah, it’s a complicated and sometimes snarly ball of yarn to untangle.
My sense from the feminist women I’ve known (and the activist feminist theorists whose works I’ve read) is that feminist women also find it to be a complicated thing with lots of facets to consider. They often get caricatured and lambasted as hatefully angry man-hating people. I find them to be angry (yes), but, most often, refreshingly honest (perhaps because of their anger–too pissed off to make nice and wheedle), and to crave an honest and serious response from males in return.
This was buried in a longer post, but I think it should be pulled out because it’s a really good way to show that the behavior is not actually some uncontrollable, innate ‘man’ reaction. If you can be polite to a woman because her boyfriend/husband is near, then there’s nothing stopping you from showing the same politeness to her alone except for blatant sexism. And, like I said before, how do you think lifeguards at nude beaches (or bouncers at strip clubs) manage to function if ‘bare boobs’ actually makes it impossible for a guy to control his reaction? Do you think they’re all just gay or asexual? What about guys in cultures where breasts aren’t normally covered, how does the tribe function if all men either aren’t interested in sex with women (so, no new babies) or can’t ever do anything but stare gibbering all day (so, no work accomplished)?
Out of curiosity, were you told the reasons for the cost advantage? Perhaps the company has found that women typically stay on the job for less time than men and hence earn less in longitivtiy pay. Or they ask for fewer raises. Or the company finds that the women will take the job for a lower starting salary. Whether any of those reasons are good ones isn’t the point. I am just wondering whether the company ever explained its reasoning.
I am glad you came back, but I still have questions about the thoughts you expressed.
If a woman is walking down the street naked, what should “you do about it?” (Because of this. )
*Can *you control your innate male brain when faced with a bit of cleavage if the owner of said cleavage is standing with her big Hell’s Angel boyfriend? (Because of thisand that.)
Are you *not *for “equal rights, equal pay, equal opportunity, all that” - as you apparently have not had that part of your brain turned off, and thus you need to askif that happens when you ARE for “equal rights, equal pay, equal opportunity, all that”?
Do you understand the difference between sexual attraction and sexual objectification?
I really do appreciate your effort to understand, and that is what I am trying to do - understand.
I don’t know if he’ll see him here again. It’s hard to make a second appearance after admitting to misogyny.
I have a hard time understanding it in any other terms.
Do you think you are beyond those?
What did you mean by asking about being proud to be a man, in light of your admission of “wrongful thoughts” about women?
Are you particularly proud of not being a woman, and if so, why?
What would be shameful about that?
Relating to the question of the apparent absurdity of being civil towards women who are nakid in public and the inability of men to control their sexual desire, can I take it that you would have absolutely no problem with gay men losing their their rational minds if they see you changing?
Would that be a fair comment?
If not, what conduct do you expect of someone who you have no sexual interest in, but who has sexual interest in you? A gay man, for example. Can you imagine any circumstance where you would feel uncomfortable in someone’s objectification of you?
Do you not have any empathy for women whom you are sexually attracted to but have no desire to be looked at that way?
Women have been posting here for years how they hate men staring at their breasts, yet that is the one example you have chosen.
In terms of sexual attraction, I think there’s a subset of men–and not a small one–that assume feminist men must stop being attracted to women because they consider their own sexual attraction to be inherently derogatory. These are the guys that sex as a thing men want and that women “give up”. They see being fucked as being lessened, as inherently humiliating. I associate these patterns of behavior with this mindset:
They are troubled by sexually active women. They can’t see any healthy reason anyone would submit to being fucked by a lot of different men, so they either feel sorry for sexually active women, assuming that they have emotional problems, or they feel contempt, assuming the motive is “attention” or gold-digging.
They are deeply homophobic, with a real emphasis on “phobic”. They absolutely can’t understand a man who would let himself be fucked–would voluntarily give up his dignity and self-respect. They are also terrified by the idea that a man might want to fuck them, might be thinking about it. To be fucked, even in someone else’s mind, is to diminish that person.
They are very indulgent boyfriends and husbands. They perceive sex as a gift, an extraordinary gift, that their wife or gf–a NICE girl, a good woman–is willing to bestow. They are grateful, and they respect her not for what she does, but for her willingness to do so. It’s not a think they can imagine doing themselves. So they try to reciprocate that “sacrifice” with great manners, lots of attention, general supportive behavior. These are the same guys that process an angry woman’s rejection of sexual advances as “punishment”–not that an angry person doesn’t want to fuck the person they are angry at.
If you are a guy who thinks of sex that way, then desiring a woman is a “bad” impulse that needs to be shut down to be a true feminist. What those guys have to learn to see is that the sex act isn’t inherently debasing for the receptive partner, and that female sexuality is more like male sexuality than it is different.
I grew up on the outside of the phenomenon Mando JO is describing but very very much aware of it, and being aware of it is a big part of why I wanted to be on the outside of it. The attitude actually predates adult sexual awareness, it’s a 3rd-grade-boys’ attitude of rejoicing in contempt and disgust for its own sake, which somehow gets mapped onto sex (along with bathroom functions).
Oh, and, umm, it isn’t just the men. Some female people have a hard time conceptualizing any form of male sexuality that isn’t derived from that, and they don’t have in their heads a notion of sex as it might exist between equally situated people. But they are outnumbered by the guys with that mindset by a considerable margin.
As a woman, and particularly one born and raised in the South, I’m a little ticked off when men don’t let me off the elevator first, or hold open a door if they’re going through it as well, or don’t step up to take control of a difficult/dangerous situation and expect me to handle it. I live in California now, so that’s how I get treated by men all the time. In the South, men are still quite chivalrous.
I don’t see it as a man being condescending towards a woman when he does those things. I see it as a man honoring a woman and being kind. Heck, I hold open doors for men (and women) all the time because it’s the nice thing to do.
Besides that, men are physically stronger than women (generally), so it makes sense for them to offer to carry heavy things or to act protective in a dangerous situation. Sure, I may be able to carry it or handle it fine, but it’s nice to at least have an offer to help.
Feminists have the wrong view of chivalry in my opinion. They think that it makes women appear weak and helpless. Real women aren’t threatened by it, and appreciate it. To us, it shows that you care and are thinking about us in a respectful way. As long as you aren’t actually chauvinistic and start talking about how women are helpless creatures only good for popping out babies, I’m totally fine with you opening a car door.
It’s nice to have an offer from help from anyone, male or female. It’s annoying to have someone, male or female, swoop in and “take care of something,” assuming that I cannot. Sometimes I can’t, and I try to be strong enough to ask for help (it’s a struggle, I’ll be honest.) I grew up and live in the South, and it doesn’t bother me at all if a man doesn’t let me off the elevator first, or open a car door or whatever. It’s not something I even notice. I DO notice, and get a little ticked off, when a guy becomes a stammering mess because he accidentally caught a glimpse of my cleavage, or tells me to my face that I am not a real tech because I am a woman.
Huh. I have believed for years that I am a real woman as well as a feminist. Have I been wrong all this time? Should I hand over my “real woman” credentials to someone? Are there forms to fill out?
I grew up in a very conservative Mormon environment and I would say that Manda JO is has it right. I think that there are also possible reasons as well, though.
Mormonism has a very fucked up (pun intended) view of human sexuality. I’m only four generations away from polygamy where women were often close to chattel.
As a youth, we were taught that only men had sexual desires; that women acquiesced to sexual affection in order to [del]ensnare[/del] obtain a relationship with a guy. Guys wanted sex; women wanted marriage. If the women didn’t give sex away for free then guys would be willing to get married in order to have sex. Most marriages for women in my generation were at 19 or 20.
Girls were taught that no one wanted “used gum.” Elizabeth Smart, the girl kidnapped by a polygamous self proclaimed Mormon offshoot prophet, was held a few hundred yards from where the searchers were looking but since she had already been raped, then she figured no one would want her and remained silent. Really fucked up.
It took a while for me to appreciate that women had sexual desires as well. Fortunately I had a patient teacher in one early relationship.
I really don’t like the misogyny I hear from too many guys when women aren’t around. One (now former) American friend in Japan had a son about the same time we had our daughter. He would go on and on about how he was going to teach him how to pick up women. Then he had a daughter about the same time we had our son. He actually seemed in dismay about how guys were going to use her.
I think you would like my brother-in-law. A perfect Southern gentleman who opens car doors every time. At my previous company, there were a few other guys from Georgia and damn, they treated women with respect.
Of course, once the women folks are out of the room, you can’t walk without tripping on the misogyny, but hey, as long as they don’t talk about it in front of you, that’s cool, right?