Supposed to be:
I think that pretty much answers the question at hand Euty. I’ll request for you to please go ahead and close this thread if you deem it appropriate.
First of all, they can’t do so “unreservedly.” If they could, there would be no need for moderators in that forum. 
Second of all, I know it’s tough to get someone’s tone from a posted message, but yours seemed to me to be talking down to me. If that’s not how you meant to across, then I apologize.
Third, there seems to me to be a need to divide the attacks against nonDopers (celebrities, inanimate objects, people at WalMart, etc.) from the attacks against Dopers. To me, the former are both entertaining and harmless - a thread in that vein may raise the ire of one or more people, but it won’t be hurtful. Whereas (again, to me) the latter most definitely be hurtful.
Fourth, I don’t think people would post stuff like that anyway if the forum rules didn’t allow it. I think most people here are intelligent enough and mature enough to know what’s appropriate where.
Fifth, I know that the mod squad has plenty to do, and it often takes away from their own enjoyment of the board. It shouldn’t be their responsibility to police the board as if we were neanderthal kindergarteners. I wouldn’t wish more work on them for anything in the world. At the same time, I don’t think abolishing a forum would cause more work; in fact, I would think it would cause less.
As Euty said, it’s all about respect. People don’t get all huffy and vitriolic in, say, IMHO not because they have another outlet but because they respect the rules, the moderators, and, most importantly, their fellow Dopers. IMO.
A-Fuckin’-Men.
And if you’re yet untouched in the hairy pit or pendulum region below: A-Gotta-Look-At-Some-Pornos-And-Hope-I-Get-Some-Someday-Men.
But they still have a lot more leeway than in other fora. Take Cafe Society, for instance. Some people don’t like reality shows, for whatever reason. But this is a CS post:
“I think shows like ‘Joe Millionaire’ are sending a very bad message about materialism and male/female roles, and I won’t let my kids watch them.”
This is a Pit post:
“Fox executives are pimps! Did you see that stupid fucking ‘Joe Millionaire’ last night, where the one woman simulated giving HEAD?! I’d like to find the person who allowed that on the air and [graphic description of torture and humiliation].”
Of course there’s a place for anger, disagreement and hyperbole in all fora. But the tone of that second post is too unpleasant for an otherwise reasonable discussion. If it appeared in CS, the poster would have to be warned (and the post censored if it was offensive enough). And that’s not entirely fair, if someone really does feel that strongly. Better for the mods to be able to say “Take it to the Pit” rather than, “Poster X, you’re outta here.”
I would even go so far as to say that GD couldn’t survive without the Pit. Some very touchy subjects get brought up in GD, and the idea is to discuss the subjects themselves, without personal attacks. I’ve seen numerous threads in the Pit entitled, “Poster X, you are an [epithet].” I open them to find that someone who was taking part in a multi-page GD thread was unable to continue in a gentlemanly or ladylike manner, and brought their ire to the Pit, thereby allowing the GD discussion to continue along constructive lines. Where would GD be, without that safety valve?
**
No, I wasn’t talking down to you. Sorry if it came off that way.
**
Now, that’s a valid concern. But I don’t see how you get from that to eliminating the Pit entirely.
**
Yes, they are (most of them). But all of us, every day, have stuff happen to us, or hear about stuff, that makes us angry enough that our comments are far from M&P. Look at all the threads about animal or child abuse. Do those belong in MPSIMS? But people need to let off steam about those things, and I think it’s good that they can do so in a forum that allows cursing and ranting.
**
Sorry, I disagree. People are going to get huffy and vitriolic because that’s the way people are. If there was no forum where they were allowed to do so, posters would be banned right and left. And that would deprive us of some very fine members.
IMHO ripping on a fellow Doper online by revealing things they shared with you in person that they did not choose to make public is incredibly cruel, tacky and distasteful.
See, there is a huge difference between SDMB and IRL. Online a person has the ability to edit their posts, to choose what they’ll reveal. You can’t exercise that control in person (you’ll recall that something like 80% of communication is non-verbal). So using that against them, it’s like pulling down someone’s pants for a laugh.
Thank you, Euty.
Any reason why your fellow Mods/Admins continue to allow Collounsbury to attack people in Great Debates, then?
Amen.
Also, I want to say that I am glad there has now been more of an “official” word on this from Euty about this issue.
Um, Astro,
I think that people who “tell tales” online about dopers they met in real life will probably find out that the majority of the folks here will make a rather quick judgment. A person who sits smiling to your face, and then poisons his pen is not really that hard to expose, in a world where the written word comprises ninety percent of reality.
It’s rude, crude, and fairly boring. And that reputation is earned one hundred percent on line. And, it’s archived, too.
Tris
Don’t try to hide behind a mask. When you choose a mask, you reveal yourself more than you own face ever could. You didn’t get to choose your face.
dantheman, we’ve been over this time and again, and it all comes down to the real oldsters from the AOL days (Lynn and them) remarking about how they had to constantly fight brushfires in the light-and-happy social fora because we didn’t have an outlet. The BBQ Pit is that outlet, and we’re much better for it. Especially seeing as how we are adding new members left and right, and not all of them are able to participate in a moderate manner right away.
I don’t hang out in GD much so I don’t know what’s going on there. Bring anything you see to their attention and I’m sure they’ll take care of it.
Well, with all due respect, I don’t think that’s better - it’s just another option. Kicking someone out because they’re not following clear rules isn’t a bad thing.
The problem is that some people post their vitriol not because they have to but rather because they can. How often has someone posted something and said, “Well, since this is The Pit …” Pretty often, by my estimation. Some people seem to feel obligated to spew hatred for no real reason in this forum, and if it weren’t there, they might not spew it at all.
Now, granted, there are people who cannot exercise any self control and absolutely positively must have a forum in which they can scream at will to any and all people, whether deservedly or not. And what I say is that if such a forum did not exist and these people still insisted on behaving like troglodytes, then they could be warned/reprimanded/whatever.
As well it should be. I guess I have more faith in people than you might; I think if they didn’t have the Pit to use as a crutch, you’d see far fewer personal attacks, period. I don’t think you’d suddenly see this surge in personal attacks in GD, because most people who post there know what rules are to be followed for passionate discourse.
The threads you see that stem from GD threads wouldn’t exist at all without a Pit. I realize you’re saying that without this forum those relatively civil discussions would fall apart, but I’m not so sure that would be the case. The Pit itself is very disengenuous: “No hatred, respect your fellow poster! Except the Pit. Do whatever you want there.” There’s a double standard, albeit one that’s spelled out.
I guess I’m of the opinion that most people are adult enough to know when to say something and when to hold back.
Most of the policing that goes on here is self-policing. You don’t see moderators pop up every few posts, telling people to knock it off; they don’t need to. People are mindful and respectful of the simple rules in play here, and if they had to mind their Ps and Qs through all fora instead of all but one, I think they would.
It’s not, but it’s good to look at the situation that way. It’ll do no good to paint each Pit thread with the same brush. I just think it’s important to make the distinction.
I understand that, but here’s the thing. A lot of those threads could be in other fora instead, like IMHO. The only thing that puts them in here instead is the anger. Okay, makes sense; people get hurt or upset about something offline and they want to vent about it. But here’s where that distinction between attacks on other Dopers and attacks on nonDopers and other things comes into play. If it’s a thread about animal abuse, it could still go into IMHO. It could be an emotional thread - profane or not - and still fit in there, although in that case guidelines would have to be relaxed. But when that same thread is posted in the Pit, people who respond immediately feel they have carte blanche to say anything they wish, regardless of the OP’s feelings - heck, regardless of the OP. We’ve all seen it. Then they excuse their own bad behavior by saying, “What did you expect? This is the Pit!” Uh-uh. If it were in another forum, they’d be hooted off the boards. Why do we give free reign to hateful people?
Maybe it would. But if they’re so fine, then they know how to follow rules and to respect other people. If they don’t, then I wouldn’t shed a tear for their leaving.
What this forum does is take away most of the responsibility of posting. And on a site as revered as this, that just’s not right, IMO.
I have gotten huffy myself before, and I regretted it. I didn’t want to fall into the trap of the Pit (no pun intended). The trap is that if you post what you think without considering the consequences - and then find there aren’t any consequences to speak of - you’re inclined to keep on doing so, even if other people are hurt in your doing and nothing is accomplished other than giving your ego a quick boost.
I don’t expect the forum to ever go away. I’m just of the opinion that the board wouldn’t suffer if it were gone.
The AOL days are long, long gone. Four years later, and that outlet is now a full-fledged crutch.
I lost a lot of my faith in this approach recently when I reported clear, and admitted, attacks against a poster and seemingly no action was taken. It was a clear attack and quite nastily personal. The type of attack which would have been borderline in the Pit but was clearly out of line when posted in GD. No staff members stopped by to warn the original attacker(nor did they contact the person who reported the offensive posts, myself, with any indication that they had recieved the complaint or were doing anything about it) and the behavior spread. Now the attacks were coming from two different posters, still very personal, still absolutely no relevance to the topic at hand. Quite a few people weighed in on how offensive the attackers were being and the impropriety of their attack.
Still no staff action.
Enjoy,
Steven
link?
Not really interested in re-opening that particular thread, ever. Sorry, no link from me. Should be easy enough to find though. Look for my posts in GD for the past month or so and you should find it pretty quickly.
Enjoy,
Steven
How can you ask me not flame someone in the pit because they scratched my car just because it was a member of the board?
I have to agree with you, Dan.
I fail to grasp this need to vent in the pit… saying that it’s a need implies that, gosh darn it, I’ll just die if I don’t post about the shitty service I got at Walmart.
Wrong.
If you really need to vent, get a LJ.
I don’t understand this need to vent: I need to vent or…
or what, I ask myself.
What the hell did all these people do before there was a pit? Did they live? their heads surely must have exploded without a vent, right?
But it’s not about that is it? It’s about getting the most bang for your buck in regards to viewers.
A good chunk of the postings could easily be posted in MPSIMS by removing the curse words.
Maybe it’s just me, but this whole let’s crucify the poster of the day really leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
crutch, indeed…
I appreciate the need for people to vent about everday things - as opposed to venting about people in full attack mode - but even that can be counterproductive.
For example, let’s say someone wants to rail against the service they received in a restaurant, and after doing so they feel better. Everyone wins, right? Because others can relate to the situation.
But then other people come along in the thread and begin to attack the OP. It’s not a sympathy forum, of course, but I do get the feeling that sometimes people post nasty stuff there because they can and therefore feel obligated to do so. So what you get is a solid rant of an OP with which half of the people agree and the other half attempt to demonize the OP. The OP might feel better after venting, but after getting flak from people? I don’t think so.