amen to that. Reading this is like a parallel universe.
“Flatly refuse” is too strong; “avoid if at all possible” is more reasonable.
I don’t trust people, and I really don’t trust people who feel the need to carry a gun.
And you see how well THAT works!
Sadly, I suppose that people do carry guns in some of the places I frequent. I don’t like the idea at all. I’d much prefer if they didn’t, and I would certainly avoid any business that actually encouraged patrons to bring their guns along.
A few years ago the wing nuts in the state legislature in my state proposed a law permitting guns on college campuses. That would have allowed guns on the campus where I taught. Thank God the proposal went nowhere. There is no way I would want to teach somewhere that allowed guns on campus.
Yeah, many states have what’s called “preemption” of local laws, meaning that Statewide localities cannot implement carry bans. Many states without such laws, many localities don’t have carry bans. So in these states largely unless you see a posted sign saying “you may not bring firearms in here” (put up by government officials or private property owners) the legal assumption is people can carry. In those States you’d almost be incapable of going out in public without going somewhere that people can legally carry firearms.
For example in Ohio, there is a statewide preemption law. So anyone can open carry or concealed carry (with a license) anywhere, and local governments cannot implement bans against it. Only certain special facility types have legal prohibitions on carry in place (schools, courts, Federal buildings etc.) For private businesses they have to post a sign or verbally inform people with guns that carry is disallowed on their property if they wish to restrict it. Consequently essentially every restaurant, every supermarket, every hardware store etc in the state of Ohio people can and do carry. You essentially could not live in Ohio if you weren’t willing to go places where people carry. I just chose Ohio essentially at random, there are many States that have similar legal structures for carry of firearms.
All the places I went were quiet, low-crime suburban neighborhoods. Whatever they are doing seems to be working just fine.
If I see someone carrying a weapon openly, I leave. I don’t have ESP or Crazy-dar and have no idea what some stranger’s state of mind is or what might set him off. I’ve owned guns all my life and spent 23 years in the military. Whatever strange compulsion makes a person think he needs to display a firearm is not a mindset I want to be around.
In this day and age if I saw someone walking around with a rifle on his shoulder, and it wasn’t deer season in the mountains where my cabin is, I’d probably be concerned. A holstered pistol would cause me no concern at all. I think very few criminals in the 20th or 21st centuries have walked around with openly holstered firearms. Most people don’t even know open carry is legal at all unless they’re enthusiasts, and most criminals don’t have legal firearms in any case (i.e. they are felons who shouldn’t have one at all, or they stole the gun or bought a stolen gun illegally.) If I saw a guy walking around with a gun obviously stuffed sloppily into his waistband I’d have more concern. It’s really all about common sense. In most of the country lots of people walk around with legal firearms and nothing happens.
Also death by gun inflicted by another person is still quite rare, despite all the attention it gets. Only about 8400 people were illegally killed by guns fired by another person in the most recent year in which the FBI collected statistics. Adjusted for race, age, and gender, if you aren’t a young black male who have a 90/100,000 incidence rate most other categories are below 10/100,000 risk of this type of death, which is lower than that of driving.
What year was that?
[ETA:] How many people were injured?
(And after the last two years, some of us are not at ease at which killings are deemed legal, even those of us with very low statistical likelihood of being killed - legally or otherwise - by guns.)
I never thought about this bit of weirdness. Is it really an issue?
I don’t carry, and it’s not something I think about. But… if a place is famous for being “carry-friendly”, and I knew it was frequented by folks who carry, I’d probably not go unless they had really, really good food or whatever.
This report is from the CDC.
This is their Fastats page on homicide.
They list over 11 thousand firearm homicides, from a total of roughly 16 thousand homicides, and nearly 34 thousand fire arm deaths in total.
About 21 thousand were suicide; less than 500 were “legal intervention/war”.
It’s from this link.
I believe the CDC is tracking all homicides (which just means any death caused by another person) while the FBI is tracking murders. The datasets are both 2013 from what I can see, so the discrepancy of a few thousands would be because the CDC number reflect things like LEO killing criminals and self defense cases, while the FBI is only counting murders. While you may be uncomfortable with legal shootings, the overwhelming majority of them are cops killing people committing crimes. There’s no serious evidence contesting that.
So anyway, back to my point, 8400 is a low number. I’m not sure how I was so far off on my envelope per/100,000 numbers, but at 8454, estimate 318.9m people, your risk of being killed illegally by another person with a gun is only about 2.65 per 100,000. Again, note that those deaths are weighted dramatically by race, age, and gender, and even location. Car accidents are almost 5x as more common. I always compare risks to car accidents because almost no one avoids driving due to its risk rate, so it’s not reasonable to take “unreasonable” precautions for things that are significantly less likely to happen than dying in a car wreck. You’re free to take precautions for whatever you like, though. That’s what’s great about a free society.
To me unreasonable precautions are those that interfere in my day to day life. I don’t know what the rate of electrocution is in the United States, but even if it was 1 per 100,000 (10x less frequent than dying in a car wreck) I still wouldn’t stab a fork into a outlet. But treating electricity safely when working with it is just a normal behavior. Hiding in fear at the site of someone with a holstered gun or leaving a business I need to buy something from would qualify as life disrupting activities to me. And like I said, with guns I apply common sense too. A person with a holstered gun is brazenly open-carrying. Someone walking around with an AR variant slung over their shoulder, multiple guns holstered, a tactical helmet on and etc I’d treat way differently. But I know who is likely to be open carrying a pistol in a holster, and they just aren’t a very dangerous group of people. Everyone should develop skills for evaluating how dangerous someone is. Garden variety criminals will almost always carry concealed. Spree shooters are not going to typically just have one gun and they’ll probably have it drawn anyway, spree shooters have historically minimized the time they’re walking around obviously kitted up for shooting to avoid detection/interference before getting to their target. The Columbine shooters or James Holmes for example did this, they didn’t walk around calmly with their guns going to local businesses and such before randomly starting to shoot.
It’s not really an issue for me. In New Jersey there is no open carry and it’s almost impossible to get a concealed permit unless you are retired law enforcement.
I’m happy for you.
Or the FBI and the CDC could use different sources; the FBI might use police reporting, and the CDC ER records, but I don’t think that matters. Even the FBI stats are pretty grim.
Eight thousand is half of the sixteen thousand total.
Guns of all type account for nearly 70% of the murders consistently over the five years, and hand guns close to 50%.
We have even touched on the accidental deaths or injuries.
If I have the option, I will spend my time and money at an establishment that does not act to normalize unnecessary dangerous and irresponsible behavior.
And I wouldn’t frequent an establishment with exposed electric wiring, either.
Again:
To my mind that is particularly not grim, it is substantially less likely than dying driving a car–something the vast majority of Americans do every day. Maybe you don’t, if not, more power to you. Even if we count the full number of gun deaths it’s still less likely than dying in a car accident–and aside from homicides most gun deaths are suicides, so to me they aren’t comparable in terms of individual risk-taking when making decisions. I’m not more likely to be committing suicide with a gun just because someone in my coffee shop is carrying one. In terms of household gun ownership the suicide question is more relevant, because we do know that guns at home makes it easier for a suicidal person to complete their suicides (guns I believe are the highest efficacy suicide tool, with gunshots to the head having a 95% success rate in suicide.) But we aren’t talking about that.
Like I said earlier, everyone is free to consider risk as they will. To me, 2.65/100,000 is such minimal risk I do not factor it into my daily life. This cuts both ways, I have a CCW and long experience with guns. I do not carry pretty much ever, the CCW just allows me to more easily transport guns in a few scenarios that I commonly transport guns. The scenario where I’d need a gun for defense is so low % wise I find it silly to carry them. I choose not to live my life governed by irrational fear, so I do not fear localities where open or concealed carry are legal. I do not fear going into a home where the owner has guns.
I know people that are more paranoid about risk, and that’s their privilege, like I said, I simply choose not to live my life afraid of remote possibilities.
I don’t particularly care to be killed legally or injured, either.
Suicide, as you noted, really isn’t relevant to this discussion; but injuries and accidental deaths are.
And yes, I drive; it would be nearly impossible for me to work if I did not. I can work - and shop, and dine, and do just about everything else I care to - in an environment free of guns.
Does the likelihood of being injured or killed in a car increase with the number of miles driven?
As to the OP question itself, I really would not mind either way. I don’t pack but whether or not the other patrons of a business do, does not really bother me. As it is, I already would not be frequenting places with a reputation for a rough or violent crowd, and that would be more of a factor IMO.
I would be severely inconvenienced if I didn’t drive, and I take lots actions to reduce my risk of car accidents. I research auto safety stats when I shop cars, I wear a seat belt, I drive carefully, I take special precautions when driving in snow, I stop and pull over if i realize I am too tired to drive safely.
I am not paranoid about guns. I don’t check to make sure establishments forbid them or anything. I’d probably enjoy hunting. But yeah, if I see people in a shop who feel the need to display their firearms when going about their routine business, I will take my custom elsewhere.