Would evidence of the existence of the soul be evidence for the existence of god(s)?

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

I’m not quite sure where to put this. It’s inspired by a story I wrote, but I’m not looking for input on the story*, so Cafe Society seems inappropriate. The words soul and religion seem to move the question into Great Debates territory, but since the topic is as imaginary as Icarus, any debate would seem mostly hypothetical. I flipped a coin and GD lost, but I shan’t argue if it gets moved.†

Anyway, here’s the thread questions.

First, what conceivable phenomena would you accept as evidence of the existence of the soul? (By “conceivable,” I mean “describable in language, even if not logically possible or physically plausible.”) And second, if such evidence existed, would it imply anything about the existence of a creator and/or sovereign deity?

Note that I didn’t write proof; this is not geometry. Also note that I didn’t write immortal. I’ll crib a definition from Merriam-Webster; a soul is “the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life.” That implies neither the soul exists indefinitely after the body dies or that it existed from the beginning of time before the body was created. Rather, it implies that there’s a qualitative difference between the lives of ensouled beings (humans, for instance,) and non-ensouled beings (cuttlefish, for instance).

I think you can answer those questions without reference to the above-mentioned tale. For those who prefer something more specific to sink their speculative teeth into, I’ll put some notes I penned while planning this story in a spoiler box.

The story in question is a fantasy tale, set in a world peopled by mythological creatures but no humans. In this world there is definite and repeatable evidence of the existence of souls. This comes in the form of wraiths called locheias and banshees. The former are spirits in the shape of beautiful, naked, white-glowing women who appear when ensouled beings–kentaurs, cyclopes, satyrs, & whatnot–are born, carrying the newborns’ souls. The latter are similar, except that they glow gold rather than silver and take the souls away when creatures dies. As the description implies, both locheias and banshees are visible to mortals, but they are not audible; they can be seen singing to the newborn or soon-to-die creature, but no one other than the creature in question can hear the song. Likewise, they can be caught on film, but only visually.

When locheias arrive, they can be seen carrying a ghostly image of the baby; they lay hands on the baby as if placing the image inside, and only afterwards does the baby start breathing or crying. Likewise, banshees lay hands on a dying person and seem to remove a ghostly image, which can be glimpsed by a living person for only a moment before disappearing. In both cases, the wraiths can be seen approaching from and departing in apparently random directions when their work is beginning or after it ends; they can walk on water and air as easily as dry land, and also pass through solid matter like smoke through a screen, an ability no other entities in this universe possess. Though there are magically-powered mortals in this world, no one whatsodamever can interfere with their work, or even so much as hear their songs unless that song is intended for them. Children can remember their locheia’s song, but not past toddler-hood; prodigies sometimes write down the words of those songs, which are different for each of them. As there is an (authorial) absolute ban on resurrection in this world, no one has any idea what the hell the banshees are singing.

When I wrote this story, it was with the idea that the creatures of this magical world were as religiously varied as human beings. If god(s) exist(s), he, she, or they are giving evidence no more directly than he does in the real world. Thus satyrs worship a god they call Dionysus, along with his mother, Semela; kentaurs worship Nephele and her consort, Ixion; and so so forth. Some creatures abandon the faith of their fathers to convert to other religions, or to become agnostics or atheists and so forth. But as I was looking the story over Sunday, I wondered whether outright atheism might not be perverse in this universe.

Slightly different questions for anyone mad enough to read the above crap. Do the existence and behavior of the banshees and locheias prove that souls exist? If yes, does that say anything about the existence of a creator god?

My answer is “probably but not definitely” to (1), no to (2).

Thoughts, anyone? Bueller?

*Because it’s finished. And by “finished,” of course, I meaned “abandoned for paying work.” And by “paying work,” I currently mean “an article about payday lenders and why they should all be beaten to death with clubs.” Stupid non-Pulitzer-winning life.

†Unless it’s moved to the Pit, of course. In that case I will, kick over the nearest table, hold my breath til I pass out, and then cry like a Kazakh when someone steals my wallet while I’m unconscious. I’m very immature.

[Der_Trihs]

@Skald_the_Rhymer

First, what conceivable phenomena would you accept as evidence of the existence of the soul?

Verified communication with the soul of a dead person comes to mind. People never suffering memory or cognitive loss from brain damage, but only loss of body control would be evidence for the old “the brain is just a receiver, the person is the soul” version.

@Skald_the_Rhymer

And second, if such evidence existed, would it imply anything about the existence of a creator and/or sovereign deity?

Not much; neither requires the other. There’s no logical reason you couldn’t have souls without gods, or gods lording it over mortals without souls.

[glee]

Although it’s interesting to discuss such ideas, I’m with Der Trihs that there’s no need for Souls to imply the existence of Deities.

All sorts of Creation myths have been recorded, full of all sorts of life.
Apparently animals don’t have Souls (though how we know that is a mystery).

I’m afraid it all seems an idea used by religious believers to support their claims.

Now if we find Hell, that would prove the existence of a Deity.

[Der_Trihs]

@glee

Now if we find Hell, that would prove the existence of a Deity.

Nope. It could just be a naturally unpleasant region of the afterlife, no more evidence of a god than the Sahara is. Or the immaterial artifact of aliens. Or constructed by the souls of the dead - there was no Hell, so they built it. Or some sort of manifestation of millions of Christians believing in it.

[Magiver]

If we could prove the existence of the soul I think it would give the government an excuse to tax the dead. We’ve already successfully gotten them to vote.

[Sage_Rat]

Evidence of souls just expands our knowledge of physics. And unless the definition of God (or gods) is that of a being who cannot ever be found or explained via scientific investigation, then if they exist then eventually we’ll be communicating with them via radio waves and complex mathematical formulas or whatever. No evidence except for evidence of a deity is evidence of a deity, and even that is just physics in the end.

[Chronos]

Note that I didn’t write proof; this is not geometry. Also note that I didn’t write immortal. I’ll crib a definition from Merriam-Webster; a soul is “the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life.” That implies neither the soul exists indefinitely after the body dies or that it existed from the beginning of time before the body was created. Rather, it implies that there’s a qualitative difference between the lives of ensouled beings (humans, for instance,) and non-ensouled beings (cuttlefish, for instance).

You appear to be conflating two different concepts of “soul”, here: The M-W definition there would apply to any animal (or possibly any living creature at all), not just those like humans which have that “special something”. A cuttlefish could certainly be said to have an animating principle or actuating cause, and the soul of the cuttlefish could be defined as that which distinguishes a live cuttlefish from a dead one.

But as to your question, while the mere existence of the locheias and banshees don’t in themselves prove anything, they would open up a new avenue of investigation into what we would call the supernatural. Has anyone ever tried to follow where a banshee goes with the soul after death, or trace where a locheias brings the soul from? Has any attempt ever been made to communicate with either, via sign language or the like? In the rare cases where a locheias’ song is recorded, do the words seem to carry any meaning?

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@Chronos

But as to your question, while the mere existence of the locheias and banshees don’t in themselves prove anything, they would open up a new avenue of investigation into what we would call the supernatural. Has anyone ever tried to follow where a banshee goes with the soul after death, or trace where a locheias brings the soul from? Has any attempt ever been made to communicate with either, via sign language or the like? In the rare cases where a locheias’ song is recorded, do the words seem to carry any meaning?

Attempts to communicate with either sort of wraith is entirely fruitless. They appear from what appears to be an entirely random spot, pass through all obstacles–including people–like ghosts (which, incidentally, do not exist in this world, either in reality or in legend), retrieve (or deliver) whatever the ghostly images represent, and then levitate away.

A prodigy who manages to write down what the locheias sing to him or her at birth report that it was simply the child’s name.

Why do you say the wraiths’ existence and actions prove nothing? I agree that it has no bearing on whether God does or does not exist, or the nature of God, but surely the fact that babies don’t start breathing until the locheias touch them,and that the dying stop breathing at the banshees’ touch, implies very strongly that souls exist. The main problem I see, of course, is that it’s not falsifiable because no one can interfere with with either sort of wraith.

[Yumblie]

It might imply some kind of deity-like figure, who may even be a super-intelligent alien, but it doesn’t have to be someone/something ultimately responsible for creation. It could’ve been some kind of genetic mutation injected into an early homosapien that has since spread into all its descendants. Something like that may have even evolved naturally, if we could figure out how to create one ourselves. Could we create a soul for a cat? In fact, how do we know cats don’t have souls? How would we communicate with a cat beyond the physical level? How would we ever know?

In terms of the fantasy story, it might at first imply that there’s some creator god running things. But it would depend on how all those other magical creatures came around. Did they magically appear one day, or did they evolve like normal? Perhaps these wraiths are simply another type of organism that feeds or spreads itself via the life and death of other organisms. Certain types of bacteria thrive on the death of other organisms, so maybe the death wraiths can sense a creature dying and come and feed upon the soul. The life giving wraith can be like a plant spreading its seeds to multiply, or a parasite that uses copies itself into a nonliving entity to make it appear alive. None of this would require a creator god.

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@Yumblie

It might imply some kind of deity-like figure, who may even be a super-intelligent alien, but it doesn’t have to be someone/something ultimately responsible for creation.

Well, I did say that gods. The ancient Olympians, for instance, weren’t conceived of as eternal and self-existent, even in myth, but they were certainly (as a group) sovereign.