Would it be evil for me to give Jehovah Witnesses handouts from JWFacts.com when they come here?

In My Humble Opinion
181

**justanothermike **

Why do you feel the need to be part of ‘any’ organization?

In an organization with such strict rules - that it itself does not follow - why would you want to be part of "that’ organization?

If ‘God’ is the ‘God of truth’ - what can it think of any organization that uses lies and deception to spread the message? Especially when those lies and deceptions are aimed at the followers themselves. These may be the work of ‘imperfect men’ - but thats NOT how the Watchtower presents the message - just the nice scapegoat they use when they are caught.

Shouldn’t that organization be able to use honesty to pass the message and teachings? What does it say about a teaching that must use deception to be believable?

Isn’t that exactly what the Watchtower teaches you to separate yourself from?

I don’t expect answers from you -

have a pleasant day.

PS - I use JWFacts here because its a convenient collection - I’ve actually done the research to validate much of what I repost - so, if I can find it - so can you.

182

Why do I keep going to Louisville football games? After all, the coaches have both messed around on their wives and many in the crowd are crazy fanatical at a level beyond my comprehension. Well, I go because I enjoy the subject matter and derive enjoyment from the participation even as an observer. I could stay at home and isolate myself and watch on tv.

I can be part of an organization without being entirely defined by it. I can choose to get hung up by my hurt feelings or negative experiences and leave for sure. But I cannot discount all of the good things in my life that came from the organization either. Being imperfect isn’t a convenient excuse, it is a fact. I also don’t believe that all of the truths that I have learned, truths that I may not have learned elsewhere, are all founded in deception. I appreciate those truths and the organization that taught me those things. I cannot throw those away simply because some things are somewhat misquoted. How many other things are quoted just fine and back up a point being made? It is easy to find something here or there that fits a bias toward a perception of deception, but that doesn’t negate the other truths that are indeed backed up by other citations just because one citation falls short.

Assuming that you believe in the Bible, you know that God traditionally had a group of people that he seemed to support and approve of despite their many screwups. So I do actually see benefit in being part of such a group. If i found a better group for me I would move toward that, though I can still maintain my individuality. I believe I’ve shown that already.

You obviously have strong feelings toward JWs. You choose to see the mistakes as intentional lies and deceptions. What do you think is the payoff? Money? Fame? Power?

Have you found “truth” that resonates with you? Obviously you’re searching for lies so as to point those out, so I would think that you’re looking for something “truthier” in your life. Are you flying solo on that with your own belief structure entirely, or are you leaning toward some set of beliefs from a particular group that meets your criteria?

Gonna hit the sack soon, but thought I’d bang out a reply before doing so. You seem pretty mad at the J-dubs, so I’m sure that you probably have a story behind that. I’ve got my own as well, as I shared a bit of it. I’d be interested to hear yours here as part of the thread.

Later,
Mike

183

The real question is, do you care?

Me, when I had the door-to-door hawkers of religion, I handed out quotes from famous atheists. Mostly Christopher Hitchens.

184

Fair enough - but we’re not talking about sporting events here, are we? We’re not discussing what the “world” does - we’re discussing what a specific religious organization teaches - or, atleast HOW it teaches its followers and conducts itself.

Do you still support the coach or the school if found to be working outside the rules? You can still enjoy the game, and even root for the team - but if the school is preaching hatred, racism, sexism or just flat out teaching falsehoods - would you support it?

Its not one citation - its an entire history of lies and deceipt - starting with how Rutherford took over the organization after Russel’s death - let alone the “mistakes” Russell made in his teachings.

For an organization that calls itself “the Truth” - you would think they would not need to resort to such measures - even once.

What “truths” have you learned from the watchtower that are actually “unique” to them?

Well, I don’t believe “in” the bible - I believe the bible is another collection of stories and myths passed down as “revealed” religion - and of course, its no surprise that the bible shows that god favors certain groups (funny, how its the authors of the book itself…) but thats circular logic.

But again - we’re not discussing the bible here - we’re discussing the Watchtower and the Jehovahs Witnesses.

Since you’re not allowed to openly question the teachings of the Watchtower - lest you be disfellowshipped - you really can’t be an individual within that group. If you are quietly questioning them, then, why remain?

What difference do my feelings make - deal with the facts as presented - rebutt them or admit they are what they are.

Why do you dismiss the obvious lies as “mistakes”?? Would you do that with any other religious or political group?

What is a “lie” ? dougie_monty would never answer the question honestly - will you?

As for the payoff - with any religious group - regardless of the fervent belief behind it - it is always about power, money and fame - Look back at the cars and houses that Rutherford had - during the depression - Look at how much money fills the coffers of the Watchtower today (both in actual money and holdings) - yet, all they do is peddle books door to door - preaching “the end is near” (funny, since the bible says specifically to ignore anyone doing just that).

How many soup kitchens?

How many homeless shelters?

How many hosipitals?

I’m not searching for “truth” - atleast not in a religous sense. Anyone telling you they’ve found the “one way” is selling something.

Why would it matter if I’m “flying solo” - who says that a group is required? Oh, yeah - the groups that want you to join THEM.

Religion is all about division - “us vs them” - which is the exact opposite of what Christ taught - IF you are to take the bible as a ‘truth’.

I’ll say it again - my feelings about the “J-dubs” is irrelevant to the conversation - thats a typical diversion -“you must be mad at us” - deal with the facts as presented instead of trying to turn the conversation away from them.

185

Hi Mike,

I appreciate everything you’ve written here. I am close to a witness on a day-to-day basis, and I don’t think she would ever participate in a board like this or read any outside material. Overall, I think she’s benefited in some ways as a witness.

But there is a lot that bothers me about the organization and its teachings. I tried to bring up a couple of those things with our local door to door people, and while they were polite, I haven’t seen them since. I doubt they would have changed my mind, but I hope I was sincere in talking to them. I think they either did not see me as a viable convert (too much free thought up front) and/or they thought I was baiting them. Anyway, I’ve often wondered where is this organization going? It’s been a hundred years since 1914. What will witnesses say when it’s been a hundred and fifty years?

My biggest issues with the group are:

  • In my view, extreme readings of select biblical passages (blood, shunning), interpretations which have also changed over time. You can’t have it both ways: either you have exclusive access to the Truth or you don’t. Truth doesn’t change, doesn’t typically unnecessarily cost lives, and should be more self-evident to thinking people.

  • The discouragement of education

  • The strict stance on any kind of interfaith contact or communication

  • The whole us vs. them mentality (The Truth vs. Babylon/Satan)

  • I think, a related “ego-centric” view of society with a lack of compassion

and other things which if I thought more about I could probably list.

I have no personal negative experience with the witnesses other than a slightly off-putting style of conversation (always taking the last word, not reading or considering other views). My objections are almost entirely theoretical. And I’ve never been much for prophecy stuff, so apocalyptic views always appear to be wildly speculative and dumb to me.

Anyway, I do appreciate what you’ve written & can sympathize with feeling personally attracted to the spiritual or religious while not approving of so much that goes with it.

186

justanothermike, welcome to the SDMB! There’s a lot of fun to be had around here, and I hope you enjoy it to the fullest. :slight_smile:

187

Simster, I’ve tried to respect what you have to say and it is clear you have little to no respect for what I have to say. I did speak as to what a lie is above, noting the necessity of intent behind the lie. You see malicious intent, and I don’t. That’s fine. You have more problem with that than I do. If at some point I see that, I’ll take that into consideration. I think I’ve shown myself to be far more open minded than you thing JW’s are capable of being, and I do believe that I’m kind of an anomaly in that respect. I can see that the more I write, the more fodder I’m going to provide for you to pick at while you keep your own beliefs hidden and far away. The bottom line for me is usually this. If you’ve got something better, then share it and I’ll consider it. Otherwise you picking something I have apart isn’t exactly something that draws me to you. That’s how I roll, and your mileage may vary. The reality is that “Truth” in the absolute sense doesn’t exist. Unless someone finds the cross/stake that Jesus died on and can conclusively show that he died on one or the other, we don’t really know. In other things like it, the biggest problem is claiming to have found the one way, and I don’t make that claim. Do JW’s often do so, yes, particularly in the past. Things are changing over time, and I can appreciate that while you will choose to see it as “see, they’re a bunch of no good dirty liars”. I have had to change my tune lots of times in my own personal life as I’ve grown, and I see the organization as doing something similar. You can see it your way, and I can see it mine, and we can be amicable. In the end though, Jesus DID come and divide people, something you don’t see. His teachings were quite divisive, and his followers suffered due to that division, much as he did. People have a fairy tale view of Jesus, that he came only with love and to unite everyone, but although he gave everyone a chance, he did divide people greatly. I’m not here to divide me from you, because we’re all just people, and I’m claiming no superiority, just difference. You and I don’t see eye to eye.

I wasn’t trying to divert anything or use any types of jedi mind tricks on you. I asked you sincere questions because since you seem to have such a low opinion of what I have as a JW that it seems sure that you’ve found something better to point me to. Jesus’ apostles asked him who they would go away to if they left him, as he alone had sayings of truth. So, if all I have is a bundle of lies and you have all of the answers, show me the truth. Who has it? You? Some other organization? Or does it even exist? I personally don’t believe that it exists in absolute form, but I try to find the “truthiest” truth that I can find.

I could go on and on, but I really tire of doing this with people that can’t point me in a better direction. I’m on a journey myself, as you can see. I’ve openly questioned the JW’s, the religion that I grew up believing blindly, and I’m progressing as a person on a quest for truth, not necessarily “The Truth” which doesn’t truly exist as I see it. You can’t make people see things that they aren’t ready for, but if a person is a seeker they will find answers over time.

I wish you the best in your personal journey. That’s all I can do for anyone. I can’t change anyone’s mind and don’t look to. You seem to think that you can change mine by getting mad and trying to denigrate my beliefs which is no more effective than if I were to come to your door and try to pick apart yours. Share your truth (which you seem to shy away from) and let that serve to attract those that can see what you have to say. Like it or not, that’s what JW’s are doing when they go to your door. They are looking to share something that they’ve found beneficial, and searching for those looking for such a thing. If they don’t find it they should move on without prejudice, though you and I know that they often don’t because they’re people and people get all worked up about things.

Well, it is the weekend, and I’ve got some disc golf to go play before it gets too hot, and some catching up to do around the house after a long work week. I hope the feeling is mutual, but I wish you well Simster. I’m sure I’ll see you around the forums. If you want to beat your chest and claim to have utterly defeated me, the evil JW after I check out, that’s on you. I’ve tried to be nice and approach things with respect.

See ya.

188

Hey Butterflies,

I think that your last sentence pretty much summed me up. I can appreciate the spiritual aspect of things while not necessarily agreeing with all of the organizational stuff surrounding it.

I too struggle with many of the points that you brought out.

Where is the organization going? First, it isn’t purely an apocalyptical organization preaching the world’s end in my view, even thought that’s a big part of it. I see benefit in living in harmony with scripture now in my own life. So, it isn’t simply a measure of time (100 years versus 150 or any other number). That’s the problem with ever trying to predict a date. The Bible itself says that we do not know the day nor the hour. Trying to predict it to an exact date or even to a time frame is and has proven to be folly.

The organization has continued to grow in numbers, but more importantly to me I see growth in the way that things are done. I see a kinder, gentler organization developing that is less rigid and strict. That will make some haters crazy, but it is true. In the past the organization would basically say things like we’re Jehovah’s people and the rest of you will be destroyed, something I always had issue with. However, that stance has been progressive. I personally am more interested in progression than I am in perfection. I do see it, though admittedly in my opinion those individuals in the congregation do lag behind in adopting such things. We’re all people, and change is hard.

You’ll find all types in the organization like just about any group of people. Those that buy into everything said and that become zealots, those that think it is nice but that see flaws and keep a distance, and everything in between. In the end, we’re all doing our best to live life and help others however we can, you and I included. All any human can do is their best to live a life true to themselves and to give benefit to the world that they come in contact with.

Gotta run,
Mike

189

Thanks for the nice welcome. I’ve lurked for some time now and love that people here seem to discuss even volatile subjects with intelligence and respect. I had to get involved eventually. I got sucked into the vortex.

190

I showed respect for you and you’re writing by asking questions - questions you are clearly uncomfortable with - since you have yet to answer any of them.

You’re putting alot of words and emotions in my posts that simply doesn’t exist. Yet another escape tactic for you.

For example I never said “they are a bunch of no good dirty liars” - You are reading that in and using it as a way to discredit me, atleast to your self.

So, I’ll thank you NOT to put words in my mouth or in my posts. I have not posted in anger or tried to denigrate you at any point. I am speaking honestly when it comes to the organization you follow - but I have YET to make any posts directed AT YOU. My journey/my truth is irrelevant to the facts at hand.

So - who’s shoe is that on?

191

For what it is worth, I do appreciate that you are being honest about having some doubts and that you seem to be trying to have an honest discussion of these things. My impression from what ex JWs have told me is that it is very strongly discouraged from having an honest discussion about doubts or questions.

Personally, I don’t really have any interest in converting people to a specific viewpoint, so it’s not that I think my beliefs are “better”. It’s just that I have very grave concerns about how the JW leadership conducts itself, the high amount of control they have over their members, and it makes me sad to think of the families that have been destroyed by their shunning/disfellowship policies.
I also hate to see that many people are making serious life choices such as avoiding higher education and working menial jobs because of the organization discouraging them from higher learning. It is sad to see people wasting their lives and potential for an organization that has made numerous failed prophecies and has done some unethical things like their approach to child molesters in the congregation, their changing views on blood products, the two-faced approach to the UN, etc.

192

Welcome to the board, justanothermike. You picked a bit of a rough topic as your first posts, but I hope you stick around. You seem pretty sensible and affable. :slight_smile: Just a shame this was the first subject…

Congratulations, you’re a better person than whoever runs your organization. And I really have to wonder - what reaction would you expect? I mean, we’re dealing with an organization which causes tangible harm to many people, and exhibits a lot of cult-like behaviors. I mean, just to be clear, we can all agree that scientology is awful, right? The way it treats its followers, the way it demands that they shut themselves away from anyone who believes differently, the way it threatens those who leave… Well, this type of insular behavior is present, albeit on a much smaller scale, in many religions, and shunning… well, that’s a big one. So when you talk about JWs, what usually comes out of the woodwork are people harmed by the religion. That says a lot about it, doesn’t it?

It’s not hard, it’s downright impossible. For a religion which claims to speak on behalf of an inerrant deity to change its mind or admit error is simply impossible. Remember, we are unfortunately left with no option but to reject their claims or take them on faith. That said, why would you put blind faith in someone who has been wrong before? In an issue like this, an admission of being wrong should remove any credibility you may have once had. This is not a JW-specific problem, but they exacerbate it by attempting to rewrite history to ignore past mistakes. Good on you to admit to this. I personally could not trust or stay by a religious organization that did this. If someone claims an infallible standard, then I will hold them to that standard.

I understand what you’re saying about lies vs. unintentional misstatements, but it doesn’t particularly matter to me. Why should I take them on faith? They’ve been wrong before, and then refused to come clean about it. And my life may be on the line.

And I appreciate and respect this. :slight_smile:

193

Here is an example of how the JWs actively discourage their followers from pursuing an education.
I think it is appalling that this group plays with people’s lives. People have died because of their teachings about blood products. Even if “the light got brighter” regarding blood transfusions and tomorrow they said that it is 100% okay to have blood transfusions, that doesn’t bring back all the people who have already died. They encouraged many people to die for nothing.
While not quite as bad as physical death, I do think that the way they discourage higher education is also very harmful to people’s lives.

These are some of the reasons why I will discourage people from being part of this group. I have no problem with different religions, but I have a huge problem with harmful cults.

194

It is easy to sit back and armchair quarterback an organization if you aren’t intimately involved. Are there things that need improvement? Yes. Are people’s lives ruined? Probably, though there seems to be a lack of personal responsibility and it becomes easy to blame the organization for what people do. Do people die because they didn’t take blood? Sure. Have children been molested in the organization? I’m sure of it.

On the other hand, are there things that JW’s do really well, possibly exceptionally so? Of course. There is a lot of organization that helps things to run really well. They’ve made advances in legal status regarding free speech that others have benefited from. They’ve gone into areas ravaged by natural disasters and helped and been commended for doing so. Do they help people’s lives? Yes, as there have been many that lived very immoral lives that hurt themselves and others and they turned those around. I know that I myself would probably have been deep into drug addiction had I not known how that would have effected my life so seriously. I have a very addictive personality, and alcoholism runs in my family. I truly believe that the rigidity helped me there. Have people benefited from abstaining from blood? Yep, as statistically some avoided negative side effects of it. Bloodless medicine has advanced largely because of them, and there have been studies that show better recovery in instances due to their abstinence. Does the organization take a stand against such horrible crimes as child molestation? Definitely. I know that people have been disfellowshipped and kept away due to it. I also know of situations where warnings were given in congregations even that a person was studying and starting to come to meetings who had issues in the past so that kids could be kept safe.

You take the good with the bad in life. You take that medicine that makes you better even though it has some side effects that you don’t like. You love your family even though your parents screwed you up in some way growing up. You cheer for that team of yours even though there are some bad eggs or there have been scandals in the past. You put your faith in doctors that may have lost other patients because they may have exceptional skills in their specialty. Or, you could just label all parents bad and harmful, stop going to doctors, and just stop watching sports altogether because sometimes people get hurt.

I can’t change anyone’s mind and I’m not here to do so. I’ve been open and lamented things that have hurt me deeply and very personally. And you guys are welcome to focus solely on those things and condemn all J-dubs and the organization as a whole and ignore any positives of the people or teachings. You certainly have the right to paint everything with one brush if you like, and the picture will of course be very unattractive, which is obviously your choice if you are actively discouraging people from being part of a certain group. Of course, at that point you’re not much better than a JW that would label you as “worldly” and tell people to stay away from you, are you?

For every action there is an equal but opposite reaction. I’m not saying that the JW’s haven’t brought some of this upon themselves. However, I find it funny that many of the haters are just as blind and zealous as their counterparts that they dislike so much and people just take opposing extreme views of one another. I’ve tried really hard to find a place closer to the middle. There are others like me, though admittedly not a great deal that would openly acknowledge the negativity. Seems like there are very few on the other side that would openly be able to acknowledge anything positive. Too bad, because life in the middle has been a lot happier for me.

It has been more fun for me discussing this than you guys might think. I hate talking only one side of just about anything, as there are usually more sides than that. The haters have some valid points, as do the most hard-core JW’s. Like I learned as a kid, the truth is usually somewhere in the middle between one person’s story and the other’s, even when both are involved in the same circumstance. In marketing there’s a term called the magnetic middle, explaining how people tend to gravitate toward the middle of any three prices because they don’t feel like their getting something cheap, and they don’t feel ripped off. I wish the middle were more attractive in cases like this, but it just ends up being very polarizing.

It is hard to stay away from subjects like this because I rarely back down from a fight and love a challenge (like I said earlier, an addictive personality). And I admittedly have spent more time in here than I originally wanted to. I realize that this probably hasn’t made me any friends, but I’ll find other topics to piss people off in as well I’m sure. I’m just happy to be posting in a forum with some pretty intelligent folks. I like to be challenged and to challenge others. You guys have challenged me to take an even harder look at JW’s and to scrutinize further things that are taught. My challenge to you is to try and find some positives in this thing that you feel such vitriol for. Don’t be like the people you dislike so much and be so divisive. Give people a chance to prove who they are as an individual. After all, you guys aren’t all worldly people that are evil, and JW’s aren’t all brainwashed helpless people that follow an evil organization.

195

I am certainly not a JW but I have worked with a lot of them over the years. As a matter of fact, my office-mate and some of the people I travel with for work are ones (as is the musician known again as Prince). People like to make fun of them but I defend them, not because of any specific beliefs that they have, but because they tend to be well above average people in general in terms of values and work ethic. I have read the Watchtower and laughed at it but my coworkers who are JW really are sincere and about the most honest people that you will ever meet. If I ran a small business personally, I would want to hire them.

Most people have some weird beliefs whether it is about religion, politics or health. JW’s are not unusual in that regard and they tend to be well above average in promoting a sense of community among their members and doing good works. I feel the same way about the Mormons even though I am not one. There are plenty of harmful cults out there but I have never had a JW be anything less than good to me.

196

(snipped by me for brevity)

Nice witness - are you here to discuss or just post walls of text?

197

You have to admit it hurts that divinely inspired branding a tad.

198

I just want to point out that disfellowship is pretty much the only problem I actually have with Jehovah’s Witnesses. I’ve seen what it’s done to my family, and that’s with people who aren’t quite as adherent. (They got worse after 9/11, but then it evened out.)

I told the one lady who came by that I already had a relationship with God, and that I’d already decided that I didn’t agree with them. She was fine with that, and we even had a pleasant but brief chat about missionary work.

They have leaders who teach a doctrine that I not only disagree with but believe is harmful, but the people themselves are nice enough.

(The most fun I’ve had was having a conversation between a Yawehist and a couple Jehovah’s Witnesses, with some Mennonites, Free Will Baptists and Pentecostals joining in.)

199

I don’t see a problem with giving them any pamphlet you choose. Personally I don’t mess with them, I tell them I am not interested and close and lock the door.
Recently I had 2 nice clean cut Mormon missionaries at my door. I was on the phone so I told them I wasn’t interested, and they came back with “You aren’t interested in Jesus”, nope , “don’t you believe in Jesus?” nope. So they went away sorely disappointed that they couldn’t convert me and save my soul.

200

And it’s even easier to never direct address any one specific point brought up in this thread, and instead lump all the posters together as one large group that just don’t understand because they are outsiders. Yes, there are many things…so why don’t you address them individually?