Held by whom?
Irrelevant to the quoted material or the substance of the lie.
Move to strike as unresponsive.
Huh? He gave an example of a quote that was mangled by the Watchtower, and you think it’s valid to ask irrelevant questions regarding the quote… You have the gall to call someone else unresponsive?
He proved his case, dude. Denial isn’t an option.
By the way, you never answered my charge: the Watchtower never acknowledged its MANY erroneous predictions of the date of the end of the world.
They blame the followers -
[QUOTE=Watchtower 1979 Jul 1 p.29 How Jehovah Guides His People ]
“Out of zeal and enthusiasm for the vindication of Jehovah’s name, Word and purposes, and the desire for the new system, some of his servants have at times been premature in their expectations.”
[/QUOTE]
This was after the 1975 debacle -
Show me a publication pegging 1975 specifically.
http://4jehovah.org/did-jehovahs-witness-predict-the-end-of-the-world-in-1975/
edited to add copy/paste “According to trustworthy Bible chronology six thousand years from man’s creation will end in 1975, and the seventh period of a thousand years of human history will begin in the fall of 1975 C.E.” —Life Everlasting – In Freedom of the Sons of God, 1966, p. 29
“If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. Why not? Because all the evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years. Of the generation that observed the beginning of the “last days” in 1914, Jesus foretold: “This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.”-Matt. 24:34. Therefore, as a young person, you will never fulfill any career that this system offers. If you are in highschool and thinking about a college education, it means at least four, perhaps even six or eight more years to graduate into a specialized career. But where will this system of things be by that time? It will be well on the way toward its finish, if not actually gone!” Awake! 1969 May 22 p.15
“Bible chronology which indicates that Adam was created in the fall of the year 4026 B.C.E. would bring us down to the year 1975 C.E. as the date marking 6,000 years of human history with yet 1,000 years to come for Christ’s Kingdom rule. So whatever the date for the end of this system, it is clear that the time left is reduced, with only approximately six years left until the end of 6,000 years of human history.” Watchtower 1970 May 1 p.273
These are even more explicit -
[QUOTE=Watchtower 1968 Aug 15 p.499]
“Are we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then? Possibly, but we wait to see how closely the seventh thousand-year period of man’s existence coincides with the sabbathlike thousand-year reign of Christ. If these two periods run parallel with each other as to the calendar year, it will not be by mere chance or accident but will be according to Jehovah’s loving and timely purposes. Our chronology, however, which is reasonably accurate (but admittedly not infallible), at the best only points to the autumn of 1975 as the end of 6,000 years of man’s existence on earth. It does not necessarily mean that 1975 marks the end of the first 6,000 years of Jehovah’s seventh creative “day.” Why not? Because after his creation Adam lived some time during the “sixth day,” which unknown amount of time would need to be subtracted from Adam’s 930 years, to determine when the sixth seven-thousand-year period or “day” ended, and how long Adam lived into the “seventh day.” And yet the end of that sixth creative “day” could end within the same Gregorian calendar year of Adam’s creation. It may involve only a difference of weeks or months, not years.”
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Awake! 1968 Oct 8 p.13 ]
“The fact that fifty-four years of the period called the “last days” have already gone by is highly significant. It means that only a few years, at most, remain before the corrupt system of things dominating the earth is destroyed by God.”
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Watchtower 1974 Dec 15 p.766 ]
“And now, as the year 1975 opens up, some thousands of the anointed remnant, still alive on this earth, look ahead to realizing that joyful prospect. The increasing “great crowd” of their sheeplike companions look forward with them to entering the New Order without interruption of life. In the New Order Jehovah God will add to the “length of days” of the anointed remnant on earth to the point of satisfying the members thereof. It remains to be seen whether they will be yet retained here on earth to see the start of the resurrection of the earthly dead and to meet faithful witnesses of ancient, pre-Christian times. They would enjoy that, before being taken off the earthly scene to the heavenly reward with Christ.”
[/QUOTE]
“Possibly…” “not infallible…” “could…” “may…”
I am not impressed.
That first quote was somewhat rash, I’ll grant you. I’m not so sure about the second.
Neither are we.
What would impress you? What magical combination of words does it take for you to say, “I was wrong.”?
Or are you just going to play “No, that’s not it” until everyone just gives up and goes away?
Oh, is that all you want? For me to say “I was wrong”?
Why didn’t you say so? I could send somebody a flash drive with the words “I was wrong” playing, over and over and over.
Taken indivdually - I’d give it the benefit of the doubt - given the run-up to 1975 kept pounding the date and the expectations - along with lots of other quotes - Kingdom Ministries pushing pioneers, etc - it becomes clear that the Watchtower was pushing 1975 as the end.
They were simply “hedging their bet” with the weasel words, given that they already failed multiple times before.
And it didn’t stop there - but they continued to get more weasely “in our day” “in the twentieth century” - many times changing/editing the docs after it was failed (see the Truth book example in the doc).
So - for the Watchtower - “the light getting brighter” - actually means they get more confused and more unsure of things.
In regards to this request:
What exactly would impress you, I ask again?
You might try a pile driver!
you don’t know facials, but you do know pile driver?
Okay, here’s the deal.
Stop posting in this thread, dougie_monty. Your posts are becoming clear you’re not interested in discussing things anymore and are becoming snarky and troll-like in tone again. If you want to seriously discuss the subject, feel free to make your own thread, but do not post in this one any more.
Everyone else, please stop replying to dougie in this thread. You can feel free to take it up with him in the current Pit thread about him if you wish or make a NEW thread to discuss the hijack it brought on, but get it out of this topic now.
Let’s get back to the subject at hand and stop the circular snark posts.
Warnings WILL be given out to anyone who doesn’t listen to their specific instructions after this post is made.
I may really, really regret jumping into this, and I don’t really want to be known here as the resident JW as I’m not here to preach, but I’ve been reading this thread and lurking on this site in general for some time. I know how these things usually go, and I’m not interested in the ten on one fights that these things often become. However, I do have a point of view and thought I’d express it.
I think that one of the biggest problems in the organization is the lack of ability to be real. So, I’m going to be right now. I grew up in “The Truth” from the time I was ten or so. I’ve pioneered, been a ministerial servant, been on convention parts, etc. I believed that this was the truth, as in the absolute truth. Part of that may have been in my own head, as I am very much a perfectionist and the JW religion is kind of taught that way. Nature plus nurture for me, but the organization contributed mightily to that with statements that are listed herein. So, I’ve been that staunch supporter that believed it all and stood by it vociferously.
Now I’m not so staunch. However, I’m also not an apostate. Been there, went to those sites, etc. and I don’t fit there. I’ve had lots of my own bad experiences within the organization. Lost my brother to disfellowshipping and it hurt me deeply, as it did him too. For years I refused to speak to him. Over time I realized some things and began to disagree. I reached out to my brother and made some measure of amends, though honestly we probably wouldn’t have been close anyway. It just isn’t the style in my family (and that has nothing to do with the whole JW thing).
I’ve been through doubt, rage, etc. I have felt very alone. I see apostates often as people that are tremendously hurt and that then dedicate their lives to hating the organization out of that hurt, and I understand that. I also see many J-dubs as people that support the organization without a lot of real thought behind it. We aren’t exactly encouraged to challenge our own beliefs, even though we ask others to do exactly that when we preach to them. That’s not cool, in my eyes.
I could go on and on with negative things about the very organization that I am a member of. However, I could also go on and on with positive things. The problem is that when threads like this come up about J-dubs it brings out people that want to attack the religion and organization, people that often come in from a place of anger and hurt (often centering around disfellowshipping, which is a practice that I have qualms about personally).
So, why am I still a JW? Why would I identify myself with an organization that I don’t agree with in all things? Because there is NO organization out there that I would agree with in all things. I’m a fan of my local college sports team and support that team as a fan, but I have a hard time going on the forums with the fanatics who think that everything the university and players do is somehow a cut above and without the potential for error. It isn’t reality and it drives me nuts but that doesn’t mean that I don’t still enjoy lots of things about my team. The same goes for JW’s. I can no longer support everything done by the organization or its members, but I do hold fast to many of the beliefs. The core beliefs as I see them still ring of truth to me, though I really cannot call the religion itself “The Truth” anymore. I understand the haters, but the sad thing to me is that they rarely come with something better. They usually just come to tear something down that they hate. If I could find something that was “truthier” as I saw it, I might gravitate toward that instead. I don’t stay here and support Jehovah as a JW because of the organization and congregation, but rather despite it. It isn’t always easy.
Back to what I said at the beginning, I see one of the biggest issues being the lack of humility and ability to say “I was wrong” or “we were wrong”. That is hard to do when you set yourself up as “The Truth”. I would like to see it, but that’s just me. However, there is one big thing that sets me apart from those that would call the organization a bunch of liars.
Lies have as part of them an intent to manipulate or deceive. I don’t think that most of the instances that sites like JWFacts take such delight in are examples of intentional deceit. I think that imperfect people (who comprise any organization) have a tendency to see what they want to see to confirm what they think when finding information to cite. At least at this point in my life I don’t see the errors listed as some sort of intentional conspiracy to fool unsuspecting JW’s so as to keep them in some sort of mind control. I think that people are always looking to be led by others and that a hive mentality is often the result in any group. It is a human thing, not just a JW thing.
I hope this makes some measure of sense. It has been one heck of a long work week for me and my brain is a bit fried. I just wanted to jump in and validate some of what has been said here by the haters. I just also think that there is a positive side that isn’t going to be talked about, and that ultimately I myself may not agree with everything but that would be true anywhere. Hurtful things happen in just about any organization comprised of imperfect human beings. The problem really comes when those imperfect people don’t own up to their imperfections well, something that I don’t personally feel the organization does a great job at. I have plenty of negative feelings but there are important things that I simply cannot refute, and I don’t see the malicious intent that others may see. I see people making mistakes that hurt other people, something that happens every day in just about all areas of life. I just wish that things could be more open and that we could openly discuss those things without offending and upsetting those that buy in to extreme degrees and drink the Kool-Aid.
I’m truly sorry for those that have been hurt, and that I myself have hurt in the past because I did what I thought was right without any perspective. When a person keeps their world too small, often it only serves the ego, and I thought I should keep my world small. I’ve been on a long personal journey for “truth” in general, not just “The Truth”, and my eyes have been opened to many things. Such enlightenment has made my path harder in ways, but it has also opened me up to see beautiful things that I had never seen before. In the end, JW’s are just people. They mean well when they show up at your door. They do truly help lots of people and they try to live very moral lives and care about other people. They do want to bring hope to people that are hurting. Sadly, in their ambition to do so, they sometimes go too far, another very human thing to do. I see the intention as being quite sincere, even if sincerely misguided at times. That’s just my view, rambling as it may be.
I’m sure that I’ll read the responses here to my post. I’m just sharing my feelings and opinion, as that seems to be the point of this section of the forum. I probably won’t come back to field eleventy billion leading questions trying to make the organization look bad. I’ve admitted that things aren’t all good, and I’ve been hurt myself, but in the end this is where I am and the core beliefs are ones that I see as having a lot of truth and I’ve seen things in my life that were beautiful through this course that I’ve been on as well. I will continue on my journey and continue expanding my horizons. Should I see a reason to leave JW’s behind in the future, I’ll do so. I’ve even kind of wanted to and looked for reasons, but there are underlying truths that I just can’t get past, and those things are bigger than the negatives at this point.
Peace - Mike