How does that contradict what tomndebb said?
Well, yeah. Given there’s nuance and context, saying “racism ls racism” doesn’t really help the discussion. Since not all racism is equal, racism isn’t always racism. Miller puts it well in this particular case:
He used the term “barred” which has an official connotation. That did not apply after 1945.
I’ll back off on my objection though as he appears to be correct in practice if not officially.
I don’t find it threatning, I find it counterproductive and often hypocritical.
The best way to fix racism is… not to be racist. Not to emphasize our differences or exclude others, or some sense that previously oppressed minorities are now justifiably racist.
The best thing we can do is stop dividing ourselves into seperate groups, to stop treating different groups by different standards. It bothers me every time someone talks about how Obama’s election was such a big deal for advancing racial relations, or how it was a big victory for African Americans. You know what would be better? If it didn’t matter. If people voted for him because he thought he was the best candidate and race wasn’t an issue at all.
So if we have a White [whatever event], it’s bad. If we have a Black [whatever event], it’s bad.
And often liberals with white guilt are the worst purveyors of this hypocrisy. We’re all the same, except we’re all unique and different and our differences should be celebrated! All cultures are unique and beautiful, except of course the culture of the white majority in western nations.
The world would be a better place if the issue of race suddenly dropped from people’s minds and no one cared. Doing things that serve to seperate us along racial lines, including special contests only for certain races, is counterproductive.
So how about the Italian American Pagents I listed above. Are they bad? Are the people that attend them racist?
Also was it bad to start the Miss Black American Pageant back in 1968, when black people were not able to get into the regular Miss American Pageant?
My first instinct is that they’re still divsive, but I’m not sure what the intent is. Is it an attempt to celebrate national heritage rather than race? Is it simply a run of the mill beauty pageant that only proven italians can enter? Could a nationally/historically Italian person of a non-white race enter?
Pride in nationality (especially if it disregards race) is different from pride in race, although both probably do more harm than good.
Probably not. But it has been quite a few decades since this hasn’t been an issue.
I’m not sure I see the distinction between “national heritage” and race. That was sort of my point in my earlier post, Irish Americans have a shared background, culture, and by and large have families that came to this country in similar circumstances, and so gathering together to celebrate that heritage doesn’t seem particularly sinister. African Americans also have a shared background, culture, etc. Of course there are exceptions in both cases, not every African American is a decendent of slaves or had parents that suffered segregation (our own current President is an obvious example), and not every Irish American had ancestors that came through Ellis Island during the Potato famine, but ethnic groups are largely artificial and fuzzy categories.
“White Americans” is less of an obvious ethnic distinction, and historically groups labeling themselves as such have meant “white” to mean “not black” and the organizations thus formed were focused on segregating themselves from the black population.
True, certainly the Miss America Pageant now shows no signs of racism. But it seems rather dick to spend several decades locking blacks out of various social institutions, forcing them to create their own black pageants, black colleges and fraternities, etc. and then accuse them of racism when they don’t abandon those institutions (which presumably many of them have become attached to over the years) once segregation ends.
Most places I’ve lived have had “Polish American” or “Irish American” or “Italian American” community centers. They are always, almost without exception, fairly dilapidated affairs with a very aged membership. As the years come and go, each generation seems to associate itself less with their original ethnicity, so that the ethnic communities become less important. I suspect in a generation or two the same will happen for many black institutions. But segregation is still easily in living memory, and so Miss Black America will probably still be around for a while yet.
Except that there are differences. Ignoring them isn’t going to make them go away. In some cases, ignoring them is going to make things worse, even if absolutely no one is acting with deliberate racist intent.
Oddly enough, beauty pageants are a perfect example of this, because they’re so completely superficial. They’re entire about how people look, and how people look is the single most obvious difference between races. If most people in the country are white, then white features are going to be considered the standard of beauty, because that’s what people see the most of, and that’s what most people are going to find attractive. You’ll get the occasional winner with a darker skin tone, but you’re not going to see many contestants with African features.
But not everyone thinks European features are the most attractive. A lot of people think African features are more attractive. There’s nothing at all racist in that - it’s purely a matter of personal aesthetics. But these people are not going to be well served by your average beauty pageant, which caters to the majority standard. So why not make a pageant that specifically caters to a minority taste? There’s nothing wrong with doing that, as far as I can see, no more than there is in running a pageant for fat women. Or a beauty pageant for drag queens. If a pageant for black women is racist, is a pageant for drag queens sexist? Is the fat pageant weightist?
There is, I think, a very fine line between a society that is colorblind, and a society where minorities cannot be seen. While the former is desirable, the latter is just racism in a new hat.
Sure, that would be great. You know what would also be great? If I had a pony. No, not a pony - a unicorn! A unicorn that farts rainbows and craps moon pies!
But, just as I have no unicorn, we do not have a country where race does not matter. We’re getting closer to it, though, as evidenced by the recent election, and I think it’s a good thing to notice, and even celebrate, that fact. I kind of think that’s the sort of thing we have to do if we’re ever going to get to the point where race legitimately does not matter.
I disagree with that as an axiom. As I’ve said before, I think before you condemn something out of hand, you should ask, “What’s the justification for this?” I think there’s a good justification for having, for example, a black beauty pageant. What would be the justification for having a white beauty pageant?
I’m going to call bullshit on this one. Aside from the lunatic fringe, who is saying that you can’t celebrate English culture, or German culture, or Russian culture? This isn’t a legitimate position taken by anyone who is taken seriously.
How so? Really, how is nationality different from race, in this context? They’re both about where your ancestors were born, right? What’s the difference between saying, “My ancestors were born in Italy,” and “My ancestors were born in sub-Saharan Africa,” except the degree of geographical specificity?
So, should our society be “culture blind” as well? How would that play out, exactly? Can we not recognize that Italian food is different from French food? Irish music distinct from Greek? That English literature deals with different themes than Icelandic?
Will the oppression of the down-trodden white race never end? :rolleyes:
What does it mean, exactly? Do all the pageants combined give out more scholarship money to women than all universities and colleges combined? Does this include Federal aid like Pell Grants?
I’m guessing “for women” is the operative word in this case. So generic academic and athletic and other types of scholarships wouldn’t apply, being not exclusively for women. Otherwise it’s very hard to believe.
They often overlap but not necesarily. Are slave-descended US blacks all part of the same ethnicity and/or nationality? This thread seems to be treating them as a monolithic bloc (whereas Italians, Irish, etc are broken up into seperate groups). Is a guy current from Kenya in the same national group as a modern US citizen descended from slaves? No, but they can be the same race. Is an African from Italy, whose family has been in Italy for generations, not of Italian nationality or heritage?
If you hung out at an expat American bar in another country, would the American national heritage necesarily be tied to any race?
National heritage is more intwined with culture and tradition than race, which is a similarity in certain genetic traits.
I’m still not, generally, entirely approving of people who are fiercely proud or enthusiastic about their national heritage. It never seemed like a big deal to me and it often serves to fuel hatred.
But an ancestral German whose family has been in Ireland for 200 years can celebrate along with them, right? Or even someone of an entirely different race.
It may be a valid point, but you’re seperating groups into “black” and “white” and painting black as a monolithic, justifiable ethnic group whereas “white” tends to be a platform for racism. Those seem like biased premises.
No, I agree with this. Institutions that were created because African Americans simply couldn’t participate in the white equivelant of the organizations are entirely understandable. In those days it was entirely justifiable. However, in modern times, such segregation is largely gone - so why do we need to continue splinter into groups along racial lines? It only serves to further divide us.
I’d like to see this happen. I’ve never been a fan for people seperating themselves into groups simply based on race or ethnicity - it’d be more interesting if we associated based on mutual interests or philosophy.
But what differences do we have to acknowledge between different races? What is it that, if ignored, is going to cause more harm than good? What harm could come if, in some ideal world, no one gave a shit about everyone else’s race?
You raise an interesting point. My general points against activities, groups, and contests based on race may not apply to the same degree in such a superificial competition.
If we’re setting our sights on what’s fair in a modern world, and how to best eradicate racism, that’s the ideal to strive for.
I realize what I said is inflammatory, but I think it’s plainly obvious. Liberals with white guilt ™ are often extolling the virtues of every other non-western/european culture while trashing their own culture. They’re often apologists for some really terrible cultural practices because hey that’s their culture and it’s unique and beautiful!.. etc. Surely you have at least some idea of what I’m talking about, right? It’s almost a comical stereotype.
Again, I’m not that gung ho about the celebrations of nationality and ethnicity in general. But the difference here is that nationality is not strictly tied to race. It’s tied to culture, tradition - and, as you said, music and food among other things… A group of Italians is not necesarily sharing the pride of being of the Italian race (although it can end up that way), but of their shared history, culture, food, music, etc. A person of non-Italian genetic descent, but of Italian heritage, can belong.
A group that’s celebrating strictly race is celebrating strictly on genetic/ancestral similarities.
Wow, that’s an amazing argument that nobody’s ever made before.
And Archive Guy points out that the Miss Black USA contest was founded in 1986. Imagine that. There was no racism in the United States until black people invented it in 1986 as a means to oppress white people.
Turning off the irony, I’ll point out that there’s an invisible (White) in front of most of American society. The Miss USA contest was the (White) Miss USA contest. History was (White) history. Elected officials were (White) elected officials. The public education system is mostly a (White) public education system. Basically everything that isn’t specifically Black has generally been (White).
So when white people start whining about how black people have all their special events and organizations that they can’t be a part of, always remember that there were plenty of (White) events and organizations that black people weren’t invited in to.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with celebrations of ethnicity, America is a “Melting Pot”, and we should celebrate our diversity. We have:
St. Patricks Day, Cinqo de Mayo, Oktober Fest, the Cherry Blossom festival, Greek Festivals, Merrie Monarch Festival etc. etc. etc. No one would argue any of these are racist.
Let me ask this: What is “black” ethnic culture in America?
Black slaves in America were robbed of their culture, of their ties to their ethnicity… Why shouldn’t there be a black celebration or beauty pageant. There are certainly other ethnic celebrations and pageants.
There’s also a Miss Latina USAand Miss Asian USA.
But please, let’s continue to scrutinize the blacks. It doesn’t happen enough here.
No kidding. Considering the people who ask stuff like, “Why do black people do x” or “Why do black people do y” is it really surprising when you find that they want to do their own thing, in venues where they won’t get bombarded with stupid questions?
Not only are standards of beauty related to culture, as Miller said, but personality qualities are esteemed differently as well. My sister once told me that at her daughter’s school, there was an uproar during a fashion show because many of the black girls were sashaying down the stage in what, in the eyes of many of the white parents, looked sexually suggestive. Or at least too mature for the girls’ ages. But what they saw as being sexual, the black parents saw as self-confidence.
If we get rid of black beauty pageants, where should it end? Should we get rid of Essence, Jet, and Ebony too? Do the color-blinders want us to eschew all black niche markets? No soul food restaurants, no African Methodist Episcopal Churches, no TV One? No historically black colleges and universities?
I’m guessing the OP is pleased that CNN is doing another series on What’s Wrong with Black Americans, though. Because there’s no problem with that kind of publicity. But when black Americans want to celebrate themselves and do it in a way that reasonates with their culture, then it’s racist. Gotcha.
Effectively, yes, they are. Very few African Americans can trace their ancestry back to a specific part of Africa, because when slaves were brought to America, there was a deliberate and concentrated effort to destroy any sense of their native culture. Families were routinely broken up and sold to different parts of the country, and family is the primary vehicle by which one transmits cultural values. Blacks basically had to start all over and completely reinvent their culture. For the vast majority of African Americans, their pride in their heritage perforce begins on these shores, because they simply have no connection with their ancestry before that.
They’re also largely correct premises. In this country, “black” is a distinct ethnic group in a way that “white” simply is not. There is no “white” culture - there are dozens of distinct ethnic cultures that are comprised largely of white people, but there is no “white” culture that’s distinct from the mainstream.
Which is why these sorts of discussions really need to be handled on a case-by-case basis.
Right. But we can’t strive for equality by ignoring inequalities that currently exist. There are still a lot of racial disparities in this country, so it’s entirely appropriate to celebrate milestones in the process of achieving equality. And electing a black president is a hell of a milestone.
Sure, I’m familiar with the stereotype. I’m also familiar with the stereotype of the sex-crazed black man who loves watermelon and fried chicken. That doesn’t mean I’ve ever met a black man who fit that description. The self-hating white liberal is equally mythical - while I don’t doubt that, if you looked hard enough, you could find some people who fit that description, they are an insignificant minority, and are not taken seriously by anyone, except those looking to distort their political opposition by associating them with the lunatic fringe.
So, you’re saying that there is no cuisine that’s associated with African Americans? No music? No literature? No culture or tradition that’s unique to the American descendants of African slaves?
Is there? Certainly there’s an inner-city culture (whence comes rap, for instance), but blacks and whites alike in the inner city share that culture. And there’s a poor Southern culture (soul food), but again, that’s shared by poor Southern whites as well as blacks. The only example I can really think of are the old spirituals… Do the talent shows at black beauty pageants regularly involve the contestants singing “Michael Row the Boat Ashore” or “Steal Away to Jesus”?
I would have to say no, there is no common culture shared by African American’s. The reason for this is simple…‘African American’ peoples came from a very diverse group of individuals who also arrived in the US at varying times and places and then further diverged depending on where (and when) their little group came (or was brought) to the US. You have blacks who came from African, obviously…but African is a really big place, with even more diversity than Europe has/had… Some of those blacks came to the US directly, some came via the Carib. Islands or Central/South America.
It would be incredible if they DID have a common culture, literature, music, heritage or history.
(BTW, I thought your earlier post in this thread was spot on and well done, FWIW)
-XT