I’ve read a couple of vegetarian threads, though not many because it seems to be the same thing going around and around every time. I was reading the preface to one of my kid’s books yesterday, though, and thought I’d bring this up.
This book said that the Inuits relied almost wholly on animals for their food, clothing, and building materials. Wood was at a premium because the only real hardwood available was driftwood. Sea lion intestines were stretched for their windowpanes; whale ribs were used to frame their houses.
Now, I understand that we’re in a more modern age (duh!) and all that, but shipping and freight charges being what they are, I can’t imagine that it’s possible to get a whole lot of fresh produce way far up north, and keeping private, heated greenhouses is probably cost-prohibitive.
So what I’m asking is, more to the folks who feel that vegetarianism/veganism is the only humane lifestyle choice, I’m honestly wondering…what about the Inuits…or the peasants of the Russian steppes, or any other permafrost area? I’m honestly curious.
I put this in GD because it seemed right; if it belongs in GQ, I apologize.
I’m in Canada, and I can afford to buy oranges. I apologize for the use of fossil fuels in order to receive them. Oh,and I hear that lichen isn’t all that bad.
I think your example illustrates the role the physical environment plays in shaping culture. In other words, what’s considered a humane lifestyle is largely shaped by culture, and how that culture emerges is in good part influenced by the physical environment. To me, it would be silly for a vegatarinan to call the Inuit lifestyle “inhumane”. On what basis would a vegetarian justify it’s claims?
Granted, with modern technology, it’s feasible for the Inuits to adopt a vegaratian lifestyle. But at what cost? I’m sure many people are aware of the devestating effects that modern technology has had on the traditional culture of the Inuit.
As an interesting note, not really a hijack I hope: how did the Inuit survive an utterly non-veg diet? You can’t be healthy without some veg, right? Where’d they get the Vitamin C, etc? And what must thier cholesterol numbers be like?
Of course it’s not realistic. But I, as well as most other logical ethically based vegetarians, make a distinction between subsistence hunting, and mass produced animals who are deprived of any sort of normal existence. Subsistence hunting ultimately results in less animal death per unit of food energy than cultivated crops, which require pesticides.
It is also not realistic for Inuit to mass produce sea lions, shoot them full of hormones, keep them in strictly confined spaces for their entire lives, artificially inseminate them, and kill them in large groups.
Raw meat contains vitamin C. You can get various berries and preserve them in oil. Also wild greens contain vitamin C.
I remember reading an Eskimo ethnography from the 50s where one of the dogsled runners breaks. Well, wood was only available via driftwood, so the sled was temporarily repaired with frozen seal meat.
I grew up on a farm, where we raised beef cattle. We did not “deprive them of a normal existence.” They lived freely (and by all appearances contentedly) on 400 acres of pasture and woodland, where they grazed their lives away (predator-free, I might add) right up until the point they were taken to market.
Neither we, nor any of our cattle-raising neighbors, “shot them full of hormones,” nor were they kept in strictly confined spaces, except when they were being taken to market. For the most part, breeding was handled by a bull, the old-fashioned way. We did once use artificial insemination when we were experimenting with a buffalo hybrid (a so-called “beefalo”).
On the whole, those cattle lived enviably blissful lives. I really wish vegetarians would take the trouble to actually visit a cattle farm or ranch occasionally rather than just buying into vegan propaganda uncritically.
By the way, the only critters I’ve ever heard of being kept “in strictly confined spaces for their entire lives” are calves being raised for veal. That practice is abhorrent, I’ll agree. I won’t eat veal myself. Even my crusty ol’, right-wing conservative, tree-hugger-hating Dad won’t eat veal, for the same reason.
the goal of ethical vegetarianism/veganism is to reduce suffering. you seem to intuitively (inuitively?) grasp the stupidity of hassling inuits about not being vegetarian, i assure you that veggies share the same basic common sense. you might say (although they never would!) that vegans have bigger fish to fry. read on…
and vegetarians probably wish you would take the trouble to actually visit an abbatoir or factory farm occasionally rather than just buying into the beef council’s propaganda uncritically. and let’s be honest here, of the two sides, the beef and dairy councils have it won hands down for the sheer volume of unquestioned propaganda. when vegans have primary sources for their claims, including video footage and testimonials from ex-employees, people still say they’re lying. but beef? oh, it’s what’s for dinner! it’s what’s on my plate!
the farms you speak of do not make up the majority of american beef industry. in fact, a lot of these smaller scale farmers are pretty pissed off about the encroachment of giant agribusiness on what to them is a way of life. for the giant agribusiness concerns that totally dominate the industry, it’s purely a profit thing, and the suffering of animals means nothing to them. unfortunately as you increase the scale of cattle ranching, the first thing to go is the welfare of the animals, because no humans have any real interaction with them as they might on a smaller ranch. they aren’t animals anymore, they’re product.
in these factory farms they are most certainly deprived of a natural existence. i won’t beat you over the head with descriptions, tzel already summarized it pretty well.
beyond that, people get angry if you even think about trying to discuss any of this with them. all i have to do is say i’m vegetarian and people get defensive. this “not my problem where it comes from” attitude combined with the inhumane farm practices are the height of unneccesary suffering and arrogance, and any comparsion to the lives of the inuit is outrageous and insulting to the inuits.
-fh, who spent new year’s eve on a small cattle ranch.
Good for you, spoke. I wish that the whole beef industry worked like your farm. Unfortunately, it doesn’t. Frankly, among the people I respect the most are small farmers who raise and kill their own animals, letting them walk around and graze in the meantime. At least they understand that eating an animal means killing an animal. They know how their dinner lived. Most of the meat you buy in the supermarkets did not come from a farm like yours.
As for confined spaces, the only process that has become popularly known for using confined spaces is of course, veal. But there are many other animals that experience the same thing. All you have to do is realize that to people who view animal life as a commodity, and are seeking to make maximum profit, it only makes sense to try to fit as many of them as possible in as small a space as possible without them dying in large numbers. Battery chickens are among the recipients of this equation. They are crammed so close to each other that they have to have their beaks cut off so they don’t peck each other to death.
I am fully aware that not every segment of the meat industry uses the most inhumane techniques, but a great deal does, just because many inhumane techniques are cost effective.
Tzel and hazel-rah, where are these “factory farms?” Have you visited one, or are you relying on what you’ve read somewhere?
I’ve been around beef cattle all my life. All the cattle I’ve seen are raised on farms in just the way I described. The only time they would be subjected to crowding would be during the sale process, and at the slaughterhouse. What I suspect is happening is that vegan propagandists are taking videos at sale barns and slaughterhouses, and using those images to try to convince folks that cattle spend their entire lives pent-up like that. If you contend otherwise, please point me to one of these factory farms where cattle are cruelly confined. I’d like to visit.
In fact, it makes no economic sense to confine cattle long-term. Cattle don’t do well under these circumstances for more than a short time, because they tend to fall prey to disease.
You mentioned chicken farms. Here, I agree with you. Chicken are raised under terrible conditions. They are crowded into chicken houses and given no chance to roam free. For egg-laying chickens, it’s even worse, as they are often kept in small cages.
I have more pangs of guilt eating chicken than beef, and for my own part, I seek out free-range chicken and eggs in the store. (Free range eggs? Well, you know what I mean.)