I’m going to go out on a limb and say that Jesus wouldn’t “maybe” be pissed about this. He would DEFINITELY be pissed about this.
In case you haven’t noticed, the overwhelming majority of Catholics continue to worship within and support an institution despite the scandal of tolerating pedophilia and the further scandal of cover-ups.
I find these scandals to be such a disgusting phenomenon, I don’t see how people continue to see past it and continue to call themselves Catholic.
What major Christian faith today eschews church buildings? Or are all major Christian faiths equally off the mark as regards church buildings?
What major Christian faith today eschews steeples with bells?
How expensive do you believe the pope’s hat to be?
In what Catholic ritual are big statutes used?
- Rick
Off topic response here, but this issue is becoming bigger and bigger for me. I could hardly be called a “good” Catholic, and after my son was born wife and I started going to Mass and sending a check in. I wanted him to go to school where I went to school because I knew it was a decent place. Honestly, public schools kind of scare me. Anyway, the recent developments have soured my attitude all the more for the very reasons rhino describes. Maybe I’ll finally be honest and just stop going. And my parents can just worry about the kids going to public school.
I believe his hat cost more than $100. That’s alot of money for one hat. And he probably has more than one.
They are used in the fundamental ritual of the mass. They aren’t used hands on, but they are all over within the church. Just becuase the priest doesn’t touch them dosen’t mean that they aren’t a part of the ritual.
You’re citing a Christian story not a Jewish one.
The passion story in Matthew is riddled with factual errors as to the details and proceedings of Jewish law and procedures. For instance, it portrays the Sanhedrin as holding court on the night of the Passover. By Jewish law, a trial could not be held at night, or on the sabbath or on Passover. The gospels also depict the trial as occurring at the home of the high priest when, in fact, trials could only be held at the temple. It also depicts the sanhedrin as passing an immediate verdict when the law mandated a 24 hour interval between trial and verdict. Lastly, it portrays Jesus as being convicted of “blasphemy” when Jesus had nothing blasphemous under Jewish law. It was not blasphemous to claim to be the Messiah, and the Jewish Messiah is not God. Claiming to be the Messiah was not a claim to divinity. The Phrase “son of God” did not mean the same thing to Jews as it does to Christians. It occurs several time in Hebrew scripture in regards to men who are perceived as especially pious or just or have some special relationship with God.
You can’t use Christian scripture (and fictional scripture at that) to try to prove anything about Jewish beliefs. The phrases “Son of man,” “Son of God,” and the whole definition of the Messiah are radically different in those two traditions.
Okay, how about the Televangelist scandals. Can people still call themselves Christians if such people do such things?
At what point does the organization’s failings implicate the whole organization, and participants in it? If your church had a minister who murdered someone, would you have to leave the church? How bad does the offense have to be?
Julie
You’re quite mistaken.
Statutes are no more a part of the Mass than stained glass windows. There is no requirement for having any particular statutes in any particular number or order. They are in essence decoration. Of course, as pious reminders of saints, they are decoration that can serve a useful purpose, reminding us of the value of venerating men and women that lived good and holy lives, and trying to emulate those lives.
But the statues are in absolutely no way a part of the Mass ritual. Consider yourself corrected and educated.
- Rick
Well, let me put it this way, the government of the US, and individuals in the US, sometimes whole groups of individuals in the US have done some despicable things, sometimes those things have been done with the explicit approval of the government, and by extension the people of the US. Care to change your nationality? Move away? I don’t, IMO the US is overall a force for good, it does now and has done in the past a lot of good things, and the world is a better place for it. I can’t change the bad things that have been done in the name of or by representatives of the US, but I can work to keep them from happening again.
Now replace every instance of “US” with “Catholic Church” or “Christianity”.
I can tell you from experience at what point the organization’s failings implicate the whole organization, and participants in it. It is the point at which the organization is so infested with this evil phenomenon that it is ever-present.
I was raised Catholic in a parish that had at least two child molesters that never ever were exposed. Then I went to a Catholic high school where an extremely feminine asshole was training to be a Jesuit, became one, and then pleaded guilty to surfing child porn on the net. The archbishop in the dioscese simply transfered this potential preditor to another parish that had a grade shcool attached. When critisized on this action, the arch bishop basically said “How dare you question my authority.”
There was a Jesuit community attached to my high school. Many retired priests stayed there. One was going senile and subsequently unable to control his desire to grope boys, and constantly touched kids in the hall inappropriately. It was common knowledge to avoid this priest. Why on earth that is allowed to happen is beyond my comprehension.
Then, someone close to me revealed that to me that they were molested by one of the priests in our parish growing up. This priest was never exposed. He died a few years ago, and now there is a building added to the church and named in his honor. A building named after an evil child molestor posing as a man of God, taking advantage of vulnerable children, and devestating countless people’s lives. I was given some grisly details of the molestation and then told about how his attempts to tell people fell on deaf ears. Nobody wanted to be the person to expose this pedophile, and so not only was he allowed to continue, but the child was violated and never got justice.
Over 1,200 priests in North America have been accused in sex scandals. That is 1,200 too many. I don’t care about percentages of the Catholic Priest molesters to molesters in the general population because it is irrelevant. Priests should be held to the highest standard and they are not. There is no denying that Catholic leaders knowingly allowed unspeakable horrors to continue, and one must consider their reasons for doing so. Since the molestors I know of personally were never exposed, I can safely assume that for the many who are exposed, there are even more that aren’t.
I personally have encountered so many priests within my small frame of reference that were predator child molestors that I despise the Catholic Church and want to have nothing to do with it. You can’t pretend that the scandals aren’t as huge and horrifying as they are, which is what I don’t think many Catholics understand. I think some Catholics think that their faith is under attack and that these were a few isolated incidents in Boston, but in reality they are a fundamental and horrible product of the entire organization.
Statues are not required in the ritual of mass, but if they are present and provide decoration, then they are a part of it.
Consider yourself corrected and educated.
No, but I care enough to vote the bastards out of office. Catholics should do the same. What’s that you say? The Catholic Church is not a democracy? What a surprise that pederasty goes unpunished.
So, what you’re saying is that your OP was a red herring. Your interest isn’t in statues or Pope hats.
How about you just say that next time? That’ll save lots of time.
Julie
Does that go for carpet, too? After all, it’s present and provides decoration. How about paint?
The Catholic church I grew up attending didn’t have statues. One cross. No fancy vestments. Oh, but we had a skylight. Um, is a skylight part of the Catholic ritual?
Just checking.
Julie
Funny thing about that, you can’t always “vote the bastards out of office”, since not every bastard is elected. What you can do is make sure that applicable laws are enforced, which is exactly the same kind of power a congregation has.
Let’s see. My OP’s title was whether or not Jesus would condone the Catholic Church. I think that the subtopic of sex scandals within the Catholic Church is more than relevant; hardly a “red herring.”
Next time, before I post anything, I’ll send you an e-mail to give you a list of relevant topics that would go with my subject titles and see whther or not you agree with the list and whether or not you would like to participate. That should save TONS of time.
You seem to be implying that in a democracy such crimes are punished. Would that were true!
The failure of the church to punish the pederasts isn’t a failure of the way the church is organized (in my opinion), but a failure of the individuals within the organization.
In other words, I don’t think it’s a fault of not being a democracy.
(On a related note, I find it a bit hard to understand why people think the church should be the ones punishing people who have committed crimes. The church should have handed the accused over to the law, and the law should have tried the parties and, if found guilty, applied punishment.)
Julie
Does the carpet have anything to do with Catholicsim? Yes. Does a statue of Mary? Yes. Do stained glass windows? Ones that depict saints and religious pictures, yes.
Does carpet, paint, and skylights? Now that depends. Does this carpet have a picture of Jesus on it? Does this paint on the wall faintly resemble a cross? Does the skylight have special filters that you can put on it that can change a beam of sunlight into a floating image of Mary in the middle of the Church?
Um, let me um, qualify my previous statement. If statues are present during the mass ritual, then they are a part of it . . . except at Julie’s church that she went to growing up. That church had a sign by the door that said, “We purposefully only have a cross and no statues, and please do not consider our fancy skylight to be a part of the mass ritual, because it is not.”
So thank you for checking. Um, let me know if you have any more questions.
Interesting. I wonder if the brand name Catholic Carpets is already taken?
Hey! You didn’t tell me you’d been to my church!
Julie
I’m afraid you cannot simply assert that statutes, if present, are part of the ritual and expect to be taken seriously.
You seem to assert that any decoration, if not completely secular, is a “part of the ritual”.
What is the possible basis for that claim? Julie’s questions with respect to carpets and skylights are very germane. If there are 1200 square feet of carpet, and a 2x2 embroidery of St. Anselm in the foyer, may we consider the entire cost of the carpet as being wasted on Catholic ritual, or just the 2x2 section? Or is there an amortization schedule we can use to discover what portion of the cost of carpet should be assigned to papist frippary, and which is allowable under your system?
- Rick