Well, since Matthew, Jesus, the high priest, and all the members of the Sanhedrin were Jews, and since your original post was in response to an assertion about Christian practice, I think Christian scripture is rather useful in discovering Jewish beliefs of the first century AD. That’s when the Church was founded, after all. And was, after all, the topic under discussion.
Incidentally, the same story of Jesus being condemned for claiming to be Messiah and the Son of God is told in Mark 14:53-65. John 9:22 mentions that anyone who claimed that Jesus was Messiah was expelled from the synagogue, and John 5:18 mentioned that the Jews of the period considered Jesus’ claim of being God’s Son made Him “equal with God” (and caused them to try to kill Him), so it does not seem that claiming Messiah-hood or that you were the Son of God was the triviality you seem to think.
Whoops. Replace the word “carpet” with the word “statues.” Make more sense now? I was too hasty with my post and did not edit it properly.
Would that were true???
Well, the United States is a democracy, and crimes such as chold molestation are punished. It’s not an implication, it is a fact.
Actually, it is a failure of the way the church is organized.
-" For decades church leaders kept horrific tales of abuse out of the public eye through an elaborate culture of secrecy, decepetion, and intimidation. Victims who came forward with abuse claims were ignored or paid off, while accused priests were quietly transferred from parish to parish or sent for brief periods of psychological counseling.
Far from being unaware of abusive behavior, Cardinal Law and his deputies had detailed information on many of the archdiocese's most serious molesters. Yet it was not until decades of allegations had accumulated against them that many abusive clergymen were removed from parish ministry. Despite reports of child rape and other criminal behavior by clergymen, church leaders made no apparent effort to inform law enforcement authorities. "
Is prayer and meditation a part of the mass? Do you think that some of the participants in the ritual look at these statues and pictures for inspiration and guidance while they pray and meditate? They assist in the ritual, and therefore they are a part of it.
My carpet comment was a typo, see my previous post. Carpet is not a part of the ritual. Statues are.
The amortization schedule that I use? I base it on a 20 year amortization with a balloon payment at the end of ten years at a interest rate that is 40 basis points higher than the current treasury bill rate, with standard insurance carveouts.
Yes, and during the Crusades, thousands were killed because “God will know his own.” In centuries past, people were “converted” at the point of a sword.
Were those murderous crimes better than the child molestation? Or better?
And more to the point – what do any of those occurences prove about Jesus’ role in, or feelings about, the Church?
They are not always punished. In fact, the Catholic example merely proves this. These crimes happened in the United States. They were not punished.
Many child molestors get away with it. Having a democracy doesn’t make child molestors universally punished.
The church did a horrible job responding to the accusations. I say that the church should never have been in the position of responding with punishment. Child molestation is a crime, not merely a sin. Accusations of molestation should have been immediately sent to the law, not handled “in house.”
Even so, some of the accused would probably not have been convicted. Some of them would have had too little evidence for conviction. Others would probably have escaped conviction through political means. Democracy only functions as well as the people involved, just like bureaucracy.
So, there is no such thing as government corruption? Having a democracy can help, but it is no panacea, and cannot help if individuals are determined to act in wrongful or wicked ways. Getting people to vote even criminals out of office isn’t all that easy.
Well, then using your logic, I must confess that during part of last Sunday’s Mass, I was inspired by, and thinking about, the new grill my wife and I purchased and were planning to set up in the back yard. Ergo, the grill is now a part of Catholic ritual.
Would you like to know how much I paid for it?
Your assertion is ridiculous. The ritual is not a matter of debate. It is clearly and completely defined, and the Mass may be celebrated with nary a single statute in sight. Statutes, stained glass windows, and bells add to the ambiance, they are useful for the faithful to focus their thoughts and prayers, but they are not part of the ritual. This is a matter of fact. The Roman Rite is clearly written out. No statutes are included.
If you wish to continue in the baseless assertion that, merely because of the propiniquity of the statutes to the celebration of the Mass, the two are inextricably linked, I suppose we’ll simply agree to disagree.
The topic of Crusades does nothing more than bring up the fact that not only is that Catholic Church corrupt today, but also has a long and consistent history of corruption. Indulgences also come to mind.
Well, the Catholic Church openly condoned the Crusades and thought that it was important for people to die if they not believe in Catholicism. It wasn’t shrouded in scandal and secrecy.
The child molestation scandals of today are shrouded in secrecy and scandal. So as far as the Church’s credibility is concerned, in my opinion, child molestation looks worse.
As ignorant as fighting the Crusades was, it can be viewed in its context as honorable. Fighting for what you believe in. Today, Catholic dogma is not based on defending a priest’s right to molest as many children as they can without repocussions, although that has been the practice for many of them through failure to report and prosocute offenders and simply tranfering them around to molest at will. There is nothing honorable about an old pedophile weaseling his way into an innocent boy’s pants while posing as a man of the cloth.
So I’m going to say that today’s molestation scandals are worse than the Crusades.
Well, since all of those occurances are horrible atrocities, I think that Jesus wouldn’t condone them. I don’t think he would want any association with such terrible things. I don’t think that Jesus wants people to kill other people in his name, nor do I think that Jesus wants men that have supposedly devoted their lives to his service to take advantage of their position of trust and power and use it to rape defenseless children. I kind of goes against what he taught.
Bricker, I agree completely with your point, but you keep saying “statutes” when you mean “statues.” It’s driving me mad!
rhinostylee, I’m afraid “ritual” has a meaning, and statues aren’t generally a part of it. (I remember one feast that involves kissing the feet of a crucifix, but which one escapes me at the moment.)
Now, you could say that during Stations of the Cross, the plaques or other artistic representations of the Stations become part of the ritual. There are other times when an artifact of some sort becomes part of the ritual. But during a regular mass, statues aren’t ritualistic. They are merely decorative.
Now, being decorative doesn’t mean they weren’t purchased, or that money wasn’t wasted on them. It merely means your terminology is wrong.
I suspect that you have missed the point. Based on this:
It would seem that your complaints about ritual, vestments, buildings, etc. are the red herring and that you really want to rant on the pedophilia issue.
Regarding that, I would have to say that you have encountered an astounding number of purported pedophiles. I know hundreds of priests and, consequently, know several who have been accused of pedophilia, yet you have been able dig up over twice the number that I can claim to have encountered just in one parish and one school. I do not in any way challenge your anger, but the claims you are extrapolating from your personal experiences are not consistent with a legitimate debate.
Of the nearly 200 diocese in the U.S., most had a policy that they were following prior to the current scandal. The ones who were not following the policies, of course, are the ones that make the news. In diocese, such as Boston, where the bishop was most involved in the perpetuation and cover-up, the people have responded in many different ways: some have sought to have the bishop removed by the Vatican, some have sought redress from the legal system, some have left, some have continued to participate, but have withheld their monies from the diocese, and some have tried to pretend that nothing has happened. Your one-size-fits-all response might work in Boston, but would make no sense in Quincy, IL where the bishop has, for years, rather ruthlessly suspended any priest accused of pedophilia, even when there is no firm evidence to support the charge.
By the way, how many of these priests that you knew were molesting children have you reported to either the bishop or the civil authorities?
Originally, I did not. Eventually, I brought it up, and then decided that I wanted to debate this issue. There was no “I’m going to trick these people into a pedophilia debate” intent as the “red herring” term connotes.
And why not? I must say that you implications that I am making false claims is part of the reason that cannot repect people that always try to believe that the problem is not as great as it is. I cannot help that I encountered a ton of child molesters in my Catholic experience, it is the Catholic Church’s fault. People like you that imply that somehow I am wrong or lying for telling what I know is true through personal experience are part of the reason that this phenomenon exists. For every priest that is caught, there is several that aren’t. Guess what . . . they don’t want to be caught! Just because they are sick does not mean that they are stupid, and child molesting priests are going to try their hardest to keep their abuse a secret. They purposely violate people’s trust. You don’t believe that priests pose a risk because in your personal experience they have not. Well, that is exactly why they will continue to get away with it, because people like you won’t see it coming.
My experience is just as relevant and valid for debate as yours is. I have twelve years of Catholic education. I know priests that I respect as a result, but that doesn’t mean that I no longer believe that the organization is flawed. I realize that there are alot of priests that are not abusive, but I also don’t care to find out if they are or not because I won’t trust them very easily and I won’t puty my children in harm’s way, because I know of too many that are abusive.
Well, the person who confided in me that they were molested has enough pain as it is and does not want the information that they were raped to go public. It is not my perogative to report this for him, or else I gladly would. But this priest was dead before I ever found out about the occurance, and doing so would do little good.
As far as the child-porn priest, he already has been busted out, and the arch bishop’s comments were front page news. No need to expose anything there!
The groping priest? Well, I was in high school at the time. I am now seven years removed. My recent fervor against Catholicism did not exist at that time, only recently. So, I have not reported this man. But maybe I should. Does it make me a hypocrite if I don’t? It was common knowledge at the time, and that was before these new waves of scandal have hit the news. Is it my responsibility to get to the bottom of this?
Regardless, your implied doubt in my honesty offends me to no end. I can see how my friend who was molested’s complaints fell on deaf ears. Victims make an accusation and then people like you doubt it. You are part of the problem.
I would only like to know how much you paid for it if it is a good grill that is available at a cheap price.
Your use of my logic was flawed. First of all, your grill inspired you during your prayer and meditation at the ritual of mass? Whether that actually is true rather than simply a fecicious comment makes no difference in its lack of a point. The Catholic Church did not purchase this grill for you and your wife (I assume), and therefore it is irrelevent whether or not it was a part of the ritual for you personally. We were debating on the church spending money on things used in the ritual that could be given to the poor, and the church didn’t spend money on your grill, so it is irrelevant to the debate. The statues in a church were purchased to decorate the church and are used by the congregation in a spiritual way during the ritual and therefore are a part of it. Not only was your grill comment not funny, it didn’t prove anything and did not follow the same logic that you were trying to disprove.
I think that YOUR assertion is ridiculous. If they are used by the faithful to focus their thoughts and prayers during the ritual, then they are a part of it. No, they are not required, but if they are used, then they are a part of it. It makes perfect sense. Apparently, this IS a matter of debate, because we are debating it right now. If the Roman Rite is so clear, then why don’t you go find a reference that spells it out for me.
None of your assertions have been any less baseless than mine. Apparently you think that your points are better just because you say they are. Well, they’re not. Use of the word “propiniquity” does not make your point more valid.
Lemmesee… in order to have a Catholic parish, you need:
[ol][li]a priest[/li][li]parishioners[/li][li]a flat-surfaced table ritually set apart for use as an altar. [/li][li]water for baptisms, with a suitable container[/li][li]bread, either in loaf form or pressed wafers[/li][li]a small supply of chrism[/li][li]one or more missals, and a sacramentary, unless the priest has an eidetic memory and the congregation choose not to read along with him[/li][li]a means whereby the bishop can get there on occasion[/ol][/li]
That’s it. A building, pews, statues, a reliquary in the altar, a tabernacle for the consecrated elements, vestments, holy water receptacles, shrines to Our Lady of the Half-Bathtub, plaques for the Stations of the Cross, etc. – all incidental, helpful if they serve as focuses for people’s piety, but not necessary.
And I consider that pedophile priests and bishops who cover up for them are despicable – as are the clergy who despise and lie about the motives of 10% of the people they are supposed to be ministering to. You might check out some of the anti-Christian comments from gay men and women here, and see how many of them were oppressed by Catholics (it’s either one or two, out of well over 100 people abused by Christians of one kind or another).
Just for the record, I am not nor have I ever been a Catholic. And in my church, the bishops are elected to office prior to consecration, the priests are called by elected vestries, and we permit them to marry (my own parish church’s clergy are a married couple). But I consider that your attack on Catholicism for the sins of some of its clergy is despicable, and your other complaints don’t hold water.
And IMHO Jesus would have a big problem with the way that any of the churches that claim to be following Him behave. We Episcopalians are doing our best to try to live out what He said, and I think many others would make the same claim, with a different interpretation on what they consider most important.
You know, that explains a lot about Bricker’s responses in religion-related threads!
I have not accused you of making up your accounts. I have expressed surprise at your numbers. There could be any number of reasons for the numbers you claim: people deliberately making charges against priests that were dead simply to smear their names, people throwing the name of some priest into a conversation, simply to make it appear that they, too, knew how bad the situation was, people reporting the same priest multiple times by referring to him under different circumstances that made him appear to be different persons, or just your stumbling into a coincidentally high number of pedophile priests. Regardless, you are using anecdotes to make your case and in such a situation, an inordinate number of “hits” in the form of anecdotres always looks a bit suspicious.
However, you went further to make the claim that the numbers did not matter–they do. You have used your anecdotal experience to indicate that the RCC specifically should be censured or abandoned. If, as the numbers suggest, every religious group has a similar percentage of pedophiles in the ministerial ranks, then you should be arguing against all religion–and if the numbers are similar for the professions of teachers and doctors and psychologists, then are you going to argue that we should take apart those professions, as well?
Further, you have tainted your depiction by referring to an “effeminate” student who later became a priest and has admitted to inappropriate behavior. Are you suggesting some correlation of effeminacy and pedophilia, perhaps related to homosexuality? Given the large number of men I know who are effeminate and are not homosexual and the fact that there is no correlation of homosexuality to pedophilia, it appears that you are simply letting your emotions drive your comments on this topic.
This wasn’t a student at the high school, it was a Jesuit in training who taught there. I have to leave my computer now, so I cannot reply right now with how I disagree. I will later though. By the way, I have every right to express my emotions on the topic in conjunction with my opinion.
So far as I can tell, the Rite is not available on-line, but the book *Ceremonies of the Modern Roman Rite *, by Msgr. Peter J. Elliott, ISBN: 089870-526-6, is an excellent and complete reference.
Of course, none of us are required to consider your emotions while engaging in a debate, so, to the extent that it appears your emotions are driving your argument, your argument is weaker.
Given that things such as an altar, stained-glass windows, a cross, candles, and costly vestments are present in many (if not most) churches of many (if not most) Christian denominations, shouldn’t they all be tarred with the same brush you’ve used on Catholicism?
