So sorry BigT, I was away for a while! Also sorry for not explaining the school system, I was kinda writing for the OP, presuming she knows what I’m on about, but should’ve been more considerate to the rest of the lovely dopers!
I see how I wasn’t very clear: I meant in the first school everyone else did worse than this one kid who went to HAVO. The school were super happy someone went to HAVO and my parents thought it shouldn’t be that unusual at their daughter’s school.
The percentages are more or less (off the top of my head): 10% VWO; 20% HAVO; 70% VMBO/MAVO. But having no kids going to the HAVO pretty much means you are not doing a good job as a school.
What track they get into can realistically be decided at any time. Primary school is the same for everyone (unless you go to facist school, then you’re fucked). At age 12 (= groep 8) parents + kid choose a secondary school. This will be one of 3 types: VMBO; HAVO or VWO.
These lead to:
VMBO (age 16) - a job, MBO (vocational education) or HAVO
HAVO (age 17) - hogeschool (a university internationally, just not a very good one. It’s slightly more vocational than a university.) or VWO
VWO/lyceum/gymnasium (age 18) - university (international equivalent of a top university)
If you are doing well, it is usually fairly easy to move “up”. It’s also easy to move down if you’re struggling. Or if you find out later that actually you want to go to university you could always add on an extra year. You can also carry on from one form of higher education to another. It’s all pretty fluid.
By the time Beta-chan was 2 1/2, (and probably earlier, I just really noticed it starting then) she was demonstrating three completely different responses to directions from the three main sources, (1) her day care teachers, (2) Mommy and (3) Daddy.
My wife and I are less strict with structure than some of our friends but not as free as others. I’m a little more strict than my wife, and my “no” is non-negotiable where my wife’s is not necessarily so. Beta-chan “wouldn’t allow” Mommy to put rinse in her hair one day. Daddy doesn’t give that veto power to a toddler…
The point I wanted to make is that children can handle different expectations from different people, especially if each person is consistent. We all remember some teachers being more strict than others.
At daycare, since all the kids are doing things together, Beta-chan goes with the flow and pretty much does what the teachers say. There are other kids who are more resistant than she is.
A couple of questions.
Have you discussed this specifically with the teachers at the two schools?
How do you see your son in the future? It sounds like you are comfortable with giving him a lot of freedom, but will he benefit by having an outside source of discipline? Or will having more freedom really promote the independence you want?
You’ve only got this one chance to put him on the right road, as he gets even a little bit older he’ll be too set in his ways to change.
Send him to the more structured school.
Later on in life he’s going to have to do a lot of things that he doesn’t want to, studying in his own time at Uni. when others of his age are out enjoying themselves, getting up early on cold dark mornings to go to work.
Children who aren’t brought up to learn self discipline are much more likely to succumb to petty crime, and drug and alcohol abuse.
That as well as having poor social interaction with their peers.
You’ve tried to rationalise his behaviour, as doting parents do, but you’re not helping him by pandering to him.
You’ve said yourself that you’re spoiling him, and three year olds should not answer back their parents.
Good questions. I already have vistied both schools briefly, but I’m going there again with my son and these are good questions to ask.
A Montessori school was in our earlier pool (living in the city, we have a lot of nearby schools to choose from) but that one was off our list because it is in a bad neighbourhood. However, lots of schools have incorporated one or more traits of Jenaplan or Montessori in their methods.
My thoughts exactly! That was why I wanted opinions. So far, it is five in favour of strict, four in favour of loose. But lots of good points have been made.
Indeed, transitions seem to be the main problem. In my sons daycare, the workers have said that my son eeds more transition time and " announcement" then other kids. They warned me to do somethign about it, because while a daycare worker with five kids to watch can explain the transitions, a teacher with 25 kids to guide can’t take the time.
Corrected for the kinds of kidt that go there, the strict school has much better results. more kids then average go to VWO (that prepares for college)While that sounds attractive, it also makes me wonder exactly what you said: does that school demand too much of the kids? I’m not a tiger mom by any means. For instance, this school will expect seven year olds to do homework. The looser school does that only in the last year.
Boy, tough choices. My gut says to go with the looser school. There’s an old song I can’t quite bring to the surface of my brain, but it had to do with making all the kids color between the lines and stifling creativity.
But I can certainly see an argument for the other side. Can you change schools if it becomes a problem? Maybe you could work on this at home in the meantime to make the transition easier.
Definitely the stricter school. You can always be more free at home, but the notion of following the rules and working hard has to come from somewhere.
When is homework typical where you live? And what type of homework are these kids getting? How long does it take and is it taxing?
Even at the looser school we sent him to, my son has had some type of homework since he started pre-school at just over age 3. But it wasn’t exactly demanding - we would sit down together for 10 minutes and go through magazines each weekend looking for pictures starting with the letter of the week. Or we’d put together posters about whatever it was they were “studying.”
When he turned 4, there were many more expectations of him within the classroom. Now that he’s 5 and in kindergarten, he has homework every day except Fridays. It doesn’t take long - if he’s applying himself, it’s only about 20 minutes - but it’s still there. However, I wonder if that’s unique to the U.S. I was talking to his teacher the other day and she said that schools are now required to cram what used to be a 1st grade cirriculum into kindergarten.
Ask your son which one he likes the look of. Explain to him that you and his father will make the decision, but that he at least gets to voice his opinion.
If your choice is not his preference, explain to him why you think that the other school will be more advantageous for him.
Which explanation he may or may not be impressed with … From Britain, a thrilling tale of escape from nursery school:
Plenty of sympathy for the little guy (wearing a Spiderman shirt in the article’s photo) on the boards:
"What a little terror, bless him…but if any other three-year-olds are reading this, don’t try this yourselves "
“Good on him, a bit of spirit just what schools like to knock out of kids. 'safe environment my a** more like safely imprisoned against his wishes and opinions.”
“I attempted this 36 years ago but was apprehended a short way down the road. Nice to know someone succeeded.”
"An damning indictment of the schooling system, when a toddler jacks it in after an hour or so "
"Be a member of the special forces one day. lol Hope he’s on my side. "
“I bet the teachers are also relieved his Mum has now enrolled him at a different school … with a class full of three year olds they really don’t need one that has to be watched every second to make sure he isn’t scaling walls as tall as he is to escape …”
Believe it or not, but my son did this when he was two and a half. Walked out of the fence in the gate with two pair of parents, each thinking he belonged with the other one. My husband, also on his way to pick him up, saw him walking home one street away. Luckily there’s not much traffic there.
The daycare apologized profusely. zoid, good point!
If he figured out that strategy for himself, it may be another argument for the “looser” school – they’ll be more used to dealing with the resourceful, the ingenious, and the bold.
This “transition time” thing – what is he transitioning from? If he’s just daydreaming, yeah, it can be a problem, even in a small child.
But if he is doing something, and is reluctant to drop it on command to do something else – that can be an advantage later. It means that his bent is stay focused on a task, a useful characteristic when you reach the point where you are expected to do things without constant supervision.
That is it. Now I’m torn if I should see that trait of him as " having a good focus" or “lack of obedience” or even " the beginnings of takling back".
Tomorrow we have the talk at the stricter school !
One more data point, by the way; the stricter school is much more popular with parents in general and (upper)middle class parents in particular. It is the “school to be” and the only one with an actual waiting list.
What sealed the deal for us is *how *they teach discipline. For instance, our son currently thinks it great fun to crash headfirst from the back into an standing adult. He learned that in daycare for another boy who had three bigger older brothers who love that game. However, he has nearly knocked me and a daycare lady off our feet butting into us.
Thi stricter school told us they would actually take the time to explain why that was unacceptable, and that they would do little roleplaying games to teach why that was unpleasant for the person rammed. That sealed the deal. OUr son is not good with getting reprimanded, but he LOVES explanations and roleplays, and he is very good at getting the lesson that way.
Gosh aren’t we helpful!