Would people be so religious if they knew what religion caused?

Great Debates
101

Let’s take them all, while we’re at it, shall we?

“No gods before me” - Not represented by atheists. If you take it to mean “no gods before God” then not represented by anyone except Christians. If you include that to mean any god, then not represented by polytheists.

“No worshipping of idols/graven images” - represented by some Christians, likewise some Jews, also some Muslims, I believe. But not really anyone else.

“No taking the Lord’s name in vain” - only Christians.

“Keep the Sabbath Holy” - I would say depending on your definition we can’t include even Christians in this one. Orthodox Jews would be included. No one else.

“Honour your parents” - This would seem universal, but what does it mean? Honour them no matter what they do?

“No killing/murdering” - The first of our universal ones, and the first enshrined in law. But even this is subject to interpretation. There are Christians who gossip, against your own interpretation. There are Christians in the military. Plus there’s the debates around abortion and euthanasia, which by the very nature of their existence show that there is not concondance.

“No adultery” - Yep, this is a pretty universal one. Oh, except for people who have more than one husband/wife/partner. Or for people who think it’s ok if you’re seperated but not divorced.

“No stealing” - The second one in law. Probably actually the most universal, really. Some people consider taxes stealing, but i’d still say this is the one you should hang your hat on.

“No bearing of false witness” - The last of the ones in law. Yep, in a good many places, thought of to be bad. Then again, some people would stand by the idea of white lies.

“No coveting your neighbour’s stuff/wife” - You use envy as your example, and i’ll agree it’s a pretty good one. Most people would say horrible envy is a bad thing. But not all envy - wanting things drives the world round, after all.

So overall that’s three in law, and five of them are *debatably * universal. At least four are definetly not universal. That’s really not all that impressive. Certainly not “represented in all of mankind”. So you are incorrect here.

Then it’s not easy, is it? If you have to overcome your own nature to see it, then it’s pretty difficult. Easiness can only be defined by the success rate and ability of people to get to it. If people don’t, then even if it’s a fault of their own abilities we must conclude it’s not easy.

102

Whether you believe in God or not, God meant this commandment for all mankind. And even if you want atheists to be exempt from this one, what God means is to not put anything ahead of him… not just other “Gods”, but money, materialism … these are forms of “gods”. How many people make money their god in their empty little lives … just saying.

again, this is meant for all mankind whether you choose to believe in God or not. so if you don’t believe in God, you’re not following this commandment since you’re actually making something else your God, whether it’s your knowledge that you depend on to determine your value or self-worth or whatever else you are making first in your life - you’re breaking this commandment as a result whether you want to acknowledge it or not. And this one is also the same concept as “false gods” or putting your heart somewhere before God… He wants us to get our priorities straight, that is, love him first.

Not really. He still hears the non-christians use his name in vain and is offended… so this one is for all mankind too - believers and non-believers alike.

Again, just because people choose to not believe does not mean they’re exempt from these commandments… the commandments exist regardless of personal beliefs. And you can turn a blind eye as a non-believer, but it does not mean you’re exempt from the commandments - you’re just non-compliant.

I don’t know… this is a tough one. I don’t know why.

regarding Christians in the military, it’s hardly murder to defend or serve your country. to think otherwise is rationalizing against an unpopular war most people don’t agree with, and finding fault with the soldiers who serve in the war as a result. That’s just poor form.

You keep mentioning Christians only … When God made the Commandments, Christ wasn’t even around. The commandments were meant for all of mankind, not just the Jews or christians who came about later, but all of mankind. God thinks globally. God does not care about our religion, but he knows our hearts; and he cares about how much we love one another. While we’re on the subject, God is love.

We can all benefit from following the commandments. I am more than confident there are atheists who live ethical and moral lives, and even follow these God-given laws which are written in their hearts. And they are probably more decent people than some of the self-righteous religious who “act” holy.

agreed…

well, I believe in low taxes (or a flat tax) but paying taxes is hardly stealing… although the way the bureaucrats waste our money on fluff is a sin in itself. Regardless, stealing is universally wrong… so I agree with you.

this one is pretty close to destroying another person’s reputation by lying about them, a form of murder.

A healthy competition is hardly envy or jealousy though… I am very competitive with sports, games, businesss… you name it. I’m highly competitive, yet I don’t have an envious bone in my body… and I’m a woman! I’m always happy for another’s successes, or if someone is better looking than me ( which is seldom :eek: ) I’m never jealous of people. The closest I get to jealousy is with a boyfriend, I might be a bit possessive or want a lot of attention. That’s only because I’m high-maintenance.

that’s your perception. It’s not a matter of being correct or incorrect. God represents mankind in his teachings to us… not just a select few, but all of us. You either accept him and his commandments or not.

103

As much as I see the incredible arrogance of people who actually think think they have a clue what god wants or thinks ,it is churches that get most of my disgust. There are a finite number of people and churches compete ruthlessly for them. From their missions that change the lives of people who are unaware that they exist to the warriors that will kill for the church, the principal is wrong. Churches should be peaceful and exist side by side with everyone else. The business model demands tithing and expansion,at all cost. The actions of churches are offensive.

104

So here is my relevant story for the day.

I argued with a good friend about money badly enough that neither of us was speaking to the other. I mentioned this to my father. He reminded me – because I am religious and he is not, but he knows the words and can sing along – of the part of the Lord’s Prayer, which in Matthew is quoted as the one prayer a Christian ought to know:

“And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.”

Which, in other translations, is “Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.”

So I sent a mild apology and a forgiveness and a hope we could put everything behind us. It was returned, eventually, with a violently hateful letter suggesting I go to hell.

I could have shrugged and said that was enough. I could have cursed his name. I could have done a lot of things. What I ended up doing was remembering two sets of words: the earlier-quoted turn-the-other-cheek and the words of a Wiccan priestess when she taught me and my mother about magick (why no, I haven’t been a Christian all my life, now you mention it) :

“Never wish evil on a person, and not just because it will come back upon you. It is so much better to wish them the best. Wish that the coworker you can’t stand gets a promotion or great new job that involves them moving out of your area.”

So I wrote him a letter with a better apology. It was honest, it was heartfelt, but I did not expect him to read it. Still, I wished him all the very best in life and friends in his life to come, whether it was with me nearby or not. He wrote me back later that evening thanking me for my words, apologizing for his earlier anger, and offering the hand of civility if not necessarily friendship right off.

Now, of course I could have handled the situation as well or even somehow better if I were an atheist, if I had no religious training. Still, two rather separated belief systems helped me make something good from something bad.

For what it’s worth, I know that human beings, white people, Germans, Christians, Episcopalians, Americans, and Texans have all done really awful things. I belong to all those groups. They have even done those horrible things in the name of what they hold most dear. I don’t repent of being white because there are white supremacists; I don’t repent of being Christian because of Ted Haggard. I realize my hand can be clenched into a fist and used to punch someone just as easily as it can reach out to give them aid and comfort.

I do not believe anyone in this world can truly know beyond a doubt that they know God’s mind. I believe in Him – I have had beautiful and personal revelations that cement my faith. Perhaps it’s just brain chemistry. Perhaps I’m just worshiping my own brain. But as much as I acknowledge that people do evil things because they think God told them to, I also say it is easier for me myself to do good things because I believe God wants me to.

I believe the First Letter to the Corinthians, Chapter 13, Verse 13: “And now there doth remain faith, hope, love – these three; and the greatest of these is love.”

I believe the Nicene Creed, though I am a little edgy about the literalness of the Resurrection. I’m also nervous about the ‘one holy catholic and apostolic church’ because it implies that I believe I cannot be wrong, and I am very certain I can be.

I believe in science and in testing theories. I use my religion to help me be a better person. I think it does not make me a worse one. You are entitled to your beliefs, too.

I actually don’t believe God is really all that concerned with our worship. He might just be the being who set the universe spinning. He might be thoroughly unconcerned with it. That’s fine: the miracle of creation, of the way things really do work, is enough to fill me with wonder.

I don’t need religion, much as I don’t need a car. I can walk or bicycle or take a bus. I just find my car works best for me. I am happy where I am and I believe it is where I am meant to be.

Shine on, you crazy diamond. :wink:

105

Yes to both questions.

106

An interesting FYI sidenote: it might surprise – or amuse – some to know that those aren’t actually the ten commandments of the stone tablets. Exodus 20: 2-17 where those are only verbally stated, Moses is merely repeating to the people what he says god told him on the mount. They’re not written at all and they’re not referred to as commandments. They’re referred to as “words” that “god spake.” Then, Exodus 31:18, Moses having gone back up the mountain, he’s given two tablets of stone by god. Those aren’t commandments either. They’re referred to in the bible as “testimony.” But he breaks the tablets that god wrote with his own hands in 32:19 because he’s pissed at the idol worship he sees.

So now, he has to go back up the mountain yet again for new tablets in 34:28 and that’s the first time the word “commandments” is mentioned. Interestingly, these tablets which contain the “commandments” are actually different than what was said verbally back in 20: 2-17 and that most people think of as the ten commandments (which actually weren’t referred to as “commandments” at all).

These “commandments” (the first and only time that word is used in this up and down by moses to god regarding this whole thing) are actually (34: 13-28):

1 - Thou shalt worship no other god
2 - Thou shalt make thee no molten gods
3 - The feast of unleavened bread thou shalt keep
4 - Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest.
5 - Thou shall observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year’s end.
6 - Thrice in the year shall all your men children appear before the Lord God
7 - Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven
8 - Neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning
9 - The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the Lord they God
10 - Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother’s milk

One legislator said that if the ten commandments had been posted at Columbine, the shootings wouldn’t have happened. I wonder if that’s the list he meant. Amusing.

107

In my experience, they simply don’t attribute those things to religion. They can’t, by definition. Instead, they claim that all such ‘religious evil’ is actually just done in such a way that religion is used as a scapegoat. Religion is innocent. On the other hand, they’ve no trouble assigning good things to religion.

Reminds me of a George Carlin joke about a football team thanking jesus when they win. Don’t mention him when they lose. Sort of like prayer. If you get what you asked for, that’s positive proof. If you don’t, that’s positive proof too.

It’s a pretty nifty trick actually.

(Religious Evil is a thread I started.)

108

First, that is, to be blunt, demented advice. If anything that and other foolish bits of Christian ‘morality’ promotes evil, by teaching people that ‘good’ is the same as ‘stupid’. In fact, that seems to have been a side effect of Christianity; the fact that so many people just assume that evil is more efficient and effective.

Second, while I could go to the trouble of looking for some of Jesus’s less goofy-hippy-nice-guy quotes ( “I come not to bring peace, but a sword”, etc ), I’m tired and won’t bother because it doesn’t matter. I was speaking of religion, not Jesus, and Jesus has little to do with Christianity. He started the ball rolling, but Christianity has long since evolved into it’s own system with it’s own purposes. He stopped being much more than an advertising icon like the Michelin Man not long after he died.

And finally, I see no reason to care about the opinions of some ignorant Iron Age loon or fraud.

109

Would people continue to own guns if they knew the harm that guns have caused in the past?

Would people continue to slice tomatoes with sharp knives if they knew that people have been stabbed with sharp knives in the past?

Would people continue to use telephones if they knew that telephones have been used to harrass and abuse people in the past?

110

See? LOL

111

Honestly, if you actually think someone’s religion is likely to cause them to do horrible things, then yes, it’s absolutely right to be very concerned about it and entirely justified to oppose it, but that’s not the same as saying that because bad things happened in the name of religion, religion is a bad thing - that’s heading toward a fallacy of composition.

112

Yes, I’d agree that it would need to be parsed out to distinguish what if anything can be separated as those instances of “in the name of” and those, if any, where it’s inherent, highly likely, or reasonable to expect a negative outcome. Some will say that’s not at all possible because religion is identical in every way to every other idea, philosophy, or tool and absolutely 100% equally potentially harmful so it’s a moot point, but I don’t think it can be dismissed that easily.

113

That makes sense. I won’t try to dismiss historical religious atrocities as aberrations - I will readily concede that people’s interpretation of their own religious doctrine have led them to the conclusion that it was alright to commit atrocious acts toward others.

Mine doesn’t do that, and I don’t believe it could - so where does that leave us?

114

What about the Psalmist who say’s You are gods? And as for the commandments coming from a God, it is just believing the person who the Bible claims them to be Moses, of whom there is no Historical record. Hammarabi had a simular version of the commandments years before Moses was even thought of.

Monavis

115

It leaves us at continuing to explore the question. Perhaps drawing distinctions between fundamentalism and other types of belief. Perhaps looking at beliefs that are held by those that pronounce them totally mysterious but follow them anyway and/or the notion of ‘blind faith’ in doing that which you believe god wants you to do despite feeling that it is wrong (the Abraham/Isaac story is one I’ve referenced as an example of testing faith in god rather than testing morality as defined by not killing someone just because god told you to).

It’s an open question in my view, and I don’t suggest that we’re left anywhere definitive.

116

Fair enough. I realise the analogies I offered above are a bit trite, but would you agree then that “people did something like this in the past, and bad things happened” is not, on its own, sufficient reason to dismiss anything as worthless, or intrinsically bad?

117

Then what you mean (and the rest of your post suggests) is not that all these commandments are represented universally, but they are meant to apply universally. I have no problem with you believing the latter. I’m just trying to say that there’s a good many people that not only don’t follow them, but don’t feel any compunction to follow them, either.

I would be interested to know your response to my suggestion that knowing God’s will is in fact quite difficult. What’s your definitions of easy and difficult? How may they be recognised?

118

Oh yes, I’d agree with that. I think it’s pretty much reasonable grounds for suspicion and further thinking about it. Cause and effect needs to be established.

I suggest that there may be such a thing as an idea that can be a cause in and of itself and separate from (mis)interpretation. But that’s just a suggestion/idea and one I explore in the religious evil thread.

119

It’s “authors”. Many, many, many, many men. All dead.

120

I was raised in a very Christian home with parents who traveled to hundreds of Christian churches as part of their job, and have personally encountered thousands of Christians as well as dozens of Christian ministries. The average Christian I have met embraces Matthew 5 as a philosophy and attempts to live out that philosophy (with various degrees of success). They do not take the literary hyperbole of Matthew 10:32ff (“I did not come to bring peace, but a sword”) literally; their overriding hope is to live Matthew 19:19 ("…love your neighbor as yourself.") The problem is not Christianity; it is the failure of Christianity to reform the depravity of mankind. I recommend popping on down to the Christian church of your choice and get to know these folks…clay feet and all.

You have persisted here and elsewhere in confusing–or deliberately conflating–the underlying teachings of Christianity with what has been done by depraved individuals ignoring those teachings and pursuing their own agendas while using a pretense of Christianity as a front.

The zealotry with which you pursue that agenda is remarkably similar to fanatacism of any other kind, including the religious fanatacism that you find so destructive. On the point of religious fanatacism I suspect we agree. The crusader mentality seeks to demonize, distort, diminish and destroy others. It is the personality and not the belief paradigm which is pathologic.