Would Russia have failed in Afghanistan anyway ?

[MrQwertyasd]

@Ravenman

I think one of the unpredictable factors is that aside from the cost of the Afghanistan war, the pace of domestic reforms in the Soviet Union was accelerating. I find it very hard to disentangle the prospects of the Soviet Union crumbling because of all these various problems (war, poor economy with increasing defense spending on the arms race, etc) with the growing domestic calls to change more things.

So what I’m saying is, the Soviet Union just might have fallen apart before an opportunity to pacify Afghanistan ever presented itself. Then again, maybe Gorbachev would have been disposed of for someone more hardline, too.

So it could have looked at China and gone into business in a big way.

[Ravenman]

I don’t think so… Deng was a huge pragmatist, and I’m not sure that the Soviets really had anyone like him.

The thing about Deng Xiaoping is that he lived as a revolutionary, as opposed to the Soviet leadership who grew up in a statist system. I think China had a continual revolutionary zeal – for better or mostly worse – since 1949, whereas the USSR was comparatively a stale bureaucratic state. IMHO, of course.

[CCitizen]

@QuickSilver

Adam Jones seems to be a one trick pony on the subject and I’m not sure many share his obsessive focus on calling every conflict a genocide.

Not every conflict but many wars of Superpowers against small states. In Vietnam and Korea, USA suffered relatively minor losses, while causing enormous civilian losses among the populations of these countries. In both cases USA has caused at least a million civilian losses.

[QuickSilver]

@CCitizen

Not every conflict but many wars of Superpowers against small states. In Vietnam and Korea, USA suffered relatively minor losses, while causing enormous civilian losses among the populations of these countries. In both cases USA has caused at least a million civilian losses.

Let’s just stay on topic.

Afghanistan is an example of two superpowers involved in two separate wars in a small state, neither of which they have been able to win. Do you consider these two wars to be acts of genocide on the part of these two superpowers (Russia & US)?

[CCitizen]

@QuickSilver

Let’s just stay on topic.

Afghanistan is an example of two superpowers involved in two separate wars in a small state, neither of which they have been able to win. Do you consider these two wars to be acts of genocide on the part of these two superpowers (Russia & US)?

To a big degree. Soviet actions in Afghanistan were similar to US actions in Korea and Vietnam.

[QuickSilver]

Let me ask a different way:

Is there a war in history that you are aware of that does not consist of a majority of casualties being civilians?

[CCitizen]

@QuickSilver

Let me ask a different way:

Is there a war in history that you are aware of that does not consist of a majority of casualties being civilians?

WWI – mostly soldiers. WWII – half soldiers half civilians.

Korea, Vietnam – genocides by USA.

[XT]

@CCitizen

To a big degree. Soviet actions in Afghanistan were similar to US actions in Korea and Vietnam.

In what way were the US actions similar to those of the Soviets in Afghanistan?? How was the Korean war similar in any way to any of this? Were you just looking for wars that the US was engaged in that would give a high body count or do you really feel there was some similarity between them?

[CCitizen]

@XT

In what way were the US actions similar to those of the Soviets in Afghanistan?? How was the Korean war similar in any way to any of this? Were you just looking for wars that the US was engaged in that would give a high body count or do you really feel there was some similarity between them?

Similar in disregard for native population. Actually US had caused many more civilian casualties then USSR.

[XT]

@CCitizen

Similar in disregard for native population. Actually US had caused many more civilian casualties then USSR.

Do you have a cite to back up this claim? You’ve made it several times now in this thread, and I assume you are cherry picking numbers from external conflicts and ignoring the numbers of Soviet citizens killed by their own regime, civilians killed by the Soviets in WWII and maybe glossing over those killed in the various adventures in the Eastern Bloc, but let’s see a cite demonstrating this.

So, there is no similarity for the Korean war, and you WERE just going for body county. Got it.

[CCitizen]

@XT

civilians killed by the Soviets in WWII

In WWII, USSR was the victim of aggression and genocide by Germany. USSR paid a terrible price to save the World from the Nazis.

[MrQwertyasd]

For body counts you need this, a fascinating and useful resource for all your commie/capitalist/religious mortality arguments.

Marvel at the body counts, wince at the brutality… http://necrometrics.com/

[XT]

@CCitizen

In WWII, USSR was the victim of aggression and genocide by Germany. USSR paid a terrible price to save the World from the Nazis.

Doesn’t matter. The US wasn’t the aggressor in the Korean war OR the Vietnam war, yet you are chalking those up to the US. So, do you have a cite, yes or no? You made the claim, back it up as you like with whatever you feel does so…or don’t and keep making an unsubstantiated claim.

[CCitizen]

@XT

Doesn’t matter. The US wasn’t the aggressor in the Korean war OR the Vietnam war, yet you are chalking those up to the US.

But USA has inflicted millions of civilian losses in these wars.

[MrQwertyasd]

@XT

Doesn’t matter. The US wasn’t the aggressor in the Korean war OR the Vietnam war, yet you are chalking those up to the US.

Gulf of Tonkin ?

[XT]

@CCitizen

But USA has inflicted millions of civilian losses in these wars.

And the Soviets inflicted many, many more millions of deaths in the various wars, purges and adventures it had both internally and externally throughout it’s existence, including WWII.

Ok, so you don’t have a cite. Got that. I used an old article from Cecil to dig this one up:

II 128,168,000 VICTIMS: THE DEKA-MEGAMURDERERS

4. 61,911,000 Murdered: The Soviet Gulag State
5. 35,236,000 Murdered: The Communist Chinese Ant Hill
6. 20,946,000 Murdered: The Nazi Genocide State
7. 10,214,000 Murdered: The Depraved Nationalist Regime

Granted, it’s a bit dated, and it seems you are correct…since 1991 the US has certainly killed more people than the Soviet Union has.

[QuickSilver]

@CCitizen

WWI – mostly soldiers. WWII – half soldiers half civilians.

Might that have been due to conscription and the way in which these wars were fought, i.e. Combatants clearly identifiable and not trying to hide among civilian populations (for the most part)?

And the subsequent shift in ratio of casualties due to the changing tactics of war where enemy combatants (for example: Taliban in Afghanistan) have taken to hiding and melding into civilian populations?

[XT]

@MrQwertyasd

Gulf of Tonkin ?

Happened in 1964…the US was involved in Vietnam prior to that. That was an excuse for us to become MORE involved, but we were still involved, and the conflict pre-dated US involvement in any case, going back to the 50’s with the French. But, ok…we’ll say the US was the aggressor in that one. Still sort of leaves Korea out, which was my original point.

[CCitizen]

@XT

4. 61,911,000 Murdered: The Soviet Gulag State
5. 35,236,000 Murdered: The Communist Chinese Ant Hill

This is a tremendous exaggeration. GULAG was a tragedy, like US penal system in this century – incarceration rate was very high. About 1.4 million prisoners died in GULAG mainly due to WWII – related economic hardships. Every death is a tragedy.

[XT]

@CCitizen

This is a tremendous exaggeration. GULAG was a tragedy, like US penal system in this century – incarceration rate was very high. About 1.4 million prisoners died in GULAG mainly due to WWII – related economic hardships. Every death is a tragedy.

And your cite for this would be…?