Would Transphobic people still have a problem if 100% effective sex-change surgery was available?

[Atomic_Alex]

First off, it is very much not my intention to offend anyone by this question or terminology used therein, if I do so I apologise in advance.

Its obvious that there is quite a bit of hostility towards transexuals out there (to put it mildly). Summarised in this quote by Una Persson in this thread:

@Una_Persson

Transsexuals and transgendered persons are one of the last groups that it’s still “cool” to mock, deride, discriminate against, harass, bring specious and unnecessary legal action against, attack, batter, and kill. Even the lesbian and gay community is at best suspicious and at worst openly hostile toward those embarrassing “T’s.”

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=582075&highlight=transwoman

One of the aspects I find personally interesting about many science fiction story universes is the opportunity for an individual to comprehensively change their body through technological means.

With the best will and understanding in the world current technology doesn’t permit a 100% effective physical transition from one gender to another, a transwoman will never be able to become pregnant for example.(I’d rather this didn’t go into the issue of the true definition of what constitues a man or woman, there are entire threads inconclusively arguing that subject)

I was thinking about this issue the other day and I was wondering how societal attitudes would change if such technology did become available

After all people could no longer argue that a male-to-female transexual (for example) is not ‘really a woman’ at least in the physical sense. Would the fact that she used to be male still arouse such strong emotions, and if so, why? Would you object to having sex or a relationship with someone who has changed sex in the above scenario? For example a valid objection I’ve heard from a heterosexual male is that he would be unable to have children with a transexual woman, not so in the scenario above.

If the technology was easily and cheaply available would gender roles become less defined or what other effects would it have on society?

Currently, unless willing to undergo much stress, misunderstanding and inconvenience (again at the very mildest and most optimistic of levels) people are ‘stuck’ in the biologically sex and to a lesser extent gender role assigned to them by a 50/50 accident of birth.

Most people seem happy enough they way they are but I imagine a surprisingly large number would at least like to experience life from the other perspective if the opportunity was available. Though I imagine the societal and cultural pressures against changing gender would remain huge for quite some time until it became more mainstream and accepted.

Just re-read the above and all my examples are male-to-female, if there are any female-to-males reading this I’m thinking of you guys as well.

[spifflog]

I always think it’s odd when posters state that they don’t want to be preceived as having an axe to grind, followed by the sound of the grinding wheel.

[MrDibble]

@Disposable Hero

Would the fact that she used to be male still arouse such strong emotions, and if so, why?

Possibly more so, because some idiots would think they were being tricked even more.

Would you object to having sex or a relationship with someone who has changed sex in the above scenario?

Only if they’re not hot

Neil Gaiman did a good short story called Changes in the *Smoke and Mirrors *collection about this.

[Revtim]

Well, those who think “God chose them to be the sex they were born!” will never be happy with transgenders, no matter how perfect and comprehensive the transformation is attained.

[LonesomePolecat]

You’ve really run the “phobic” thing into the ground. Give it a rest.

[Atomic_Alex]

@MrDibble

Neil Gaiman did a good short story called Changes in the Smoke and Mirrors collection about this.

Yep, read it, good story!

@spifflog

I always think it’s odd when posters state that they don’t want to be preceived as having an axe to grind, followed by the sound of the grinding wheel.

What axe am I grinding? I stated that I didn’t want to offend people inadvertently because I know its a subject that provokes heated argument.

@LonesomePolecat

You’ve really run the “phobic” thing into the ground. Give it a rest.

I don’t recall starting many threads on the topic but feel free to correct me.

[LonesomePolecat]

@Disposable Hero

I don’t recall starting many threads on the topic but feel free to correct me.

Sorry, I should have been more careful about who I was addressing. I was talking to pretty much every leftie who’s made a habit of labeling any view or attitude he doesn’t like as “phobic.” Calling someone “transphobic” is just a way of smearing someone who understands there’s no such thing as “transgender.” Gender is not a social construct, and Chastity Bono is not a man. Chastity Bono is a woman who has had her body surgically mutilated in pursuit of an impossible fantasy.

[florez]

When I read the statistics of murders and assaults on transgender people, I do start to think what could be done to make things at least more safe for them. Also I wonder if people who say that transgender individuals are surgically mutilated in pursuit of an impossible fantasy, also feel the same way about breast implants and other plastic surgery. In the case of transgender men, from what I am understanding, it is a safety issue to get the surgery, because most assaults and murders occur after the discovery of male genitalia.

[Czarcasm]

I think that, while a more perfect procedure would ease acceptance for some, more would mistakenly take it as a personal insult, as if the procedure was being done to deceive them personally. Also, false accusations(such as those now directed towards Jamie Lee Curtis) would abound.

[Grumman]

@florez

When I read the statistics of murders and assaults on transgender people, I do start to think what could be done to make things at least more safe for them… In the case of transgender men, from what I am understanding, it is a safety issue to get the surgery, because most assaults and murders occur after the discovery of male genitalia.

Gee, I wonder why.

You want to know how I’d make things safer for transsexuals? Find every therapist who tells their clients to hide something they know is a divisive issue until the exact moment at which it will cause the greatest offense, take them out the back, and shoot them.

It’s sort of related to a comment I was going to make earlier: I’ve got no issue with transgendered individuals of either sex, but you do not raise your kids as hothouse flowers who can’t survive in the real world. No matter what the therapist’s personal feelings are on the subject of whether a transsexual is really a woman or not, you don’t tell them to do things that are going to get them killed.

[Czarcasm]

@Grumman

Gee, I wonder why.

You want to know how I’d make things safer for transsexuals? Find every therapist who tells their clients to hide something they know is a divisive issue until the exact moment at which it will cause the greatest offense, take them out the back, and shoot them.

It’s sort of related to a comment I was going to make earlier: I’ve got no issue with transgendered individuals of either sex, but you do not raise your kids as hothouse flowers who can’t survive in the real world. No matter what the therapist’s personal feelings are on the subject of whether a transsexual is really a woman or not, you don’t tell them to do things that are going to get them killed.

And one wonders where all the violence stems from.

[Grumman]

@Czarcasm

And one wonders where all the violence stems from.

From people who think that therapists have a duty to protect the well being of their clients? :dubious:

[Czarcasm]

@Grumman

From people who think that therapists have a duty to protect the well being of their clients? :dubious:

I am a friend of some transgenders who have gone through, or are currently going through, therapy, and while I am pretty sure that what you describe is a cruel fiction I will leave it to those who have personally gone through the process to correct you.

[brickbacon]

I doubt it would matter. People hung up on this stuff would react as many people do wrt to other things they think are not “natural”. See the debates about genetically modified food, synthetic diamonds, and counterfeit designer handbags.

[florez]

@Grumman

Gee, I wonder why.

You want to know how I’d make things safer for transsexuals? Find every therapist who tells their clients to hide something they know is a divisive issue until the exact moment at which it will cause the greatest offense, take them out the back, and shoot them.

It’s sort of related to a comment I was going to make earlier: I’ve got no issue with transgendered individuals of either sex, but you do not raise your kids as hothouse flowers who can’t survive in the real world. No matter what the therapist’s personal feelings are on the subject of whether a transsexual is really a woman or not, you don’t tell them to do things that are going to get them killed.

OK, let me make sure I have got this right. A male to female (pre-surgery) transgender’s therapist should be killed- for not telling their client that they should expect to be killed, for causing offense to a killer in the real world?:dubious:

[Evil_Captor]

Well my basic feeling about transgenders is “let 'em live their lives in peace.” But there is that niggling bit of doubt: do transgenders have relationships with straight males without telling them they are trans early on? There’s an inherent deception there that just seems wrong. I suspect this is what is at the crux of the feeling against trans.

[Lobohan]

@LonesomePolecat

Sorry, I should have been more careful about who I was addressing. I was talking to pretty much every leftie who’s made a habit of labeling any view or attitude he doesn’t like as “phobic.” Calling someone “transphobic” is just a way of smearing someone who understands there’s no such thing as “transgender.” Gender is not a social construct, and Chastity Bono is not a man. Chastity Bono is a woman who has had her body surgically mutilated in pursuit of an impossible fantasy.

Phobic, in this context, doesn’t mean you’re *afraid *of them, it means you *dislike *them and are prejudiced against them.

I don’t see how that’s at odds with the common usage.

[Revenant_Threshold]

@LonesomePolecat

Sorry, I should have been more careful about who I was addressing. I was talking to pretty much every leftie who’s made a habit of labeling any view or attitude he doesn’t like as “phobic.” Calling someone “transphobic” is just a way of smearing someone who understands there’s no such thing as “transgender.” Gender is not a social construct, and Chastity Bono is not a man. Chastity Bono is a woman who has had her body surgically mutilated in pursuit of an impossible fantasy.

Out of interest, what would be your reaction to the hypothetical technology suggested in the OP and those who had used it?

[miss_elizabeth]

Oh my god, this thread is awful. I have my head in my hands. Fighting ignorance, indeed…

[Czarcasm]

Here’s the deal-some people need someone or something in their lives to hate, and the more easily identifiable the target is, the better. If you make it harder for them to identify a pet hatred of theirs the hatred will escalate, guaranteed.