Would you accept liberty as just reparation for slavery?

Great Debates
1

Juneteenth is recognized as the day that the last of the legal slaves were finally freed. So far, the only just reparation for this crime of law is found in the blood given and taken by patriots and tyrants alike.

Yet still we are not truly free. On grounds of sin or vice or crow, peaceful pursuit is still prohibited by force of law. Justice demands reparation for this crime of law. Yet for me, liberty is so much more precious than any monetary or privileged considerations.

As reparation for past injustice, would you settle for liberty and justice for all? Would you hold equal right of peaceful pursuit; no matter the sin or vice? Would you well regulate your pursuits to minimize any threat of conflict? Would you accept the rights and responsibilities of liberty as just reparation of for past injustice?
rwjefferson

2

So what are debating here? Reparations for slavery which ended 143 years ago, or reparations for unequal opportunity today? For the record, I think all former slaves should receive cash reparations, but inasmuch as they are all dead, it is a moot point. Descendants who were not held in slavery are entitled to no reparations on behalf of their ancestors. If they are the victims of continuing discrimination, we have a legal system in which to seek compensation for injustice.

3

[QUOTE=Fear Itself]
If they are the victims of continuing discrimination, we have a legal system in which to seek compensation for injustice.
[/QUOTE]
We are still not truly free. On grounds of sin or vice or crow, peaceful pursuit is still prohibited by force of law. Our nation seems unable to see or find justice in equal right of peaceful pursuit. Please tell me how one would expect to find justice in an unjust legal system.

Also, please allow me open this question even further, let me open it to those that have link to patriot:
Would you accept the rights and responsibilities of liberty as just reparation for past sacrifice in the name of liberty?

Note: by liberty, I mean equal right of peaceful pursuit.

r~

4

The 620,000 deaths in the Civil War paid the price for slavery.

The job of building and improving our society can never end.

What was the topic again?

5

Could you elucidate a bit more on this repeated line? Which sins? Are you saying there are still Jim Crow laws in the US? Peaceful pursuit of what?

Anyway, yes, I’d love liberty in return for a bit of reparation. I’ll have a bit of sin on the side too, thanks.

Wibble.

6

rwjefferson, would you please take the time to lay out an actual point for discussion, including the context in which you wish to debate it?

At this point, you have set forth nothing but cryptic statements that, based on your previous contributions to the SDMB, I suspect are bringing responses well wide of the mark that you wish to debate.

Before this deteriorates into a series of personal feuds regarding the appropriate nature of reparations specifically to blacks living in the United States in the early 21st century, (which, I suspect, is not your intent), give us enough background to permit people to discuss your issue rather than the red herring you used to open the thread.

7

Slavery is a interesting topic, all full of things that we are not suppose to ask. If someone has benefited due to past enslavement of their ancestors, who owes who what? I can see a case for both sides.

Black Americans are arguably better off here in the US today then if slavery was never a part of African history. Again I ask who owes who what?

8

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
Black Americans are arguably better off here in the US today then if slavery was never a part of African history. Again I ask who owes who what?
[/QUOTE]

While I understand your point, unless you’re really not a big believer in choice (to put it mildly), I don’t think you could say black Americans owe anybody for enslaving them and bringing them over here.

9

Marley23 I am not saying that one should force someone into slavery then free them in a better place and demand payment. I am saying if your ancestors were enslaved and you have personally have benefited from that enslavement should you ask for reparations, or should you pay them?

Also remember that slavery was a common practice world wide, many African slaves were enslaved by other Africans and sold to Europeans and the Americans. American freed these slaves, ending a practice that have been SOP for 1000’s of years, at great cost to itself no less.

10

[QUOTE=rwjefferson]
Please tell me how one would expect to find justice in an unjust legal system.
[/QUOTE]
I do not accept your false bifurcation of our justice system. Just because individual cases of injustice have occurred does not make the whole system unjust. If you have been wronged, you have the same opportunity to redress your grievances as any citizen in a court of law. If you think the laws are unjust, you have the same opportunity to run for office and change those laws. If you believe otherwise, you are going to have to put forth more specific cites than your own opinion.

11

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
At this point, you have set forth nothing but cryptic statements that, based on your previous contributions to the SDMB, I suspect are bringing responses well wide of the mark that you wish to debate.
[/QUOTE]
You may not give enough credit to the decrypting talents of this board. I will strive to control my tourette’s.
[QUOTE=kanicbird]
Again I ask who owes who what?
[/QUOTE]
Justice owes liberty to both the enslaved and the patriot. The enslaved owe liberty to the patriot.

[QUOTE=jjimm]
Could you elucidate a bit more on this repeated line? Which sins? Are you saying there are still Jim Crow laws in the US?
[/QUOTE]
Please understand that I consider equal right of peaceful pursuit of happiness fundamental to the concept and spirit of liberty and justice. There are still laws that prohibit peaceful pursuits; no matter their rational.

[QUOTE=Fear Itself]
If you think the laws are unjust, you have the same opportunity to run for office and change those laws.
[/QUOTE]
We hold these truths self-evident; tyrants do not. The tyranny of the majority is not the same as liberty and justice for all.

[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves]
What was the topic again?
[/QUOTE]
Would you as a descendent of either patriot or enslaved, accept and hold equal right of peaceful pursuit as reparation for the sacrifice of your ancestors?
r~

12

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
Marley23 I am not saying that one should force someone into slavery then free them in a better place and demand payment. I am saying if your ancestors were enslaved and you have personally have benefited from that enslavement should you ask for reparations, or should you pay them?

Also remember that slavery was a common practice world wide, many African slaves were enslaved by other Africans and sold to Europeans and the Americans. American freed these slaves, ending a practice that have been SOP for 1000’s of years, at great cost to itself no less.
[/QUOTE]
Unless you have proof that the destruction of indigenous cultures by Europeans and Arabs that occurred in conjunction with the imposition of chattel slavery by those outsiders on Africa would have happened regardless of the slave terade, you are engaging in mere speculation that the descendants of slaves would have been worse off if they had not been enslaved. One cannot point to the deplorable conditions in Afrcia, todday, without recognizing the direct impact that the slave trade had on the development of Africa.

Slavery world wide was not the specific chattel slavery that was developed by Europeans and Arabs through the 16th - 18th centuries. Claims that “everybody did it” are historically bankrupt. Recognizing that, once chattel slavery had been established by those outside Africa, Africans participated in the practice hardly mitigates the fact that it was outside interference that established the practice.

13

[QUOTE=rwjefferson]
Would you as a descendent of either patriot or enslaved, accept and hold equal right of peaceful pursuit as reparation for the sacrifice of your ancestors?
[/QUOTE]
No.

14

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
Marley23 I am not saying that one should force someone into slavery then free them in a better place and demand payment. I am saying if your ancestors were enslaved and you have personally have benefited from that enslavement should you ask for reparations, or should you pay them?
[/QUOTE]

You can’t be this stupid. I’m sorry, but this is the dumbest thing I have read in a long time. Reparations aside, this makes no sense whatsoever. The US wouldn’t be the US if they didn’t have millions of slaves to exploit. This “better place” was created by the sweat of slaves. Sorry if I’m not thankful that I can get the leftovers from a meal my ancestors created, while you fatten your belly. Even if it’s a better meal, I wouldn’t trade my dignity, freedom, or moral principles for it. Basic morality would dictate that enslaved people have next to nothing to thank their slave owners for.

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
Also remember that slavery was a common practice world wide, many African slaves were enslaved by other Africans and sold to Europeans and the Americans. American freed these slaves, ending a practice that have been SOP for 1000’s of years, at great cost to itself no less.
[/QUOTE]

Are you aware that slavery still exists? Either way, the abolition of slavery in the US was long overdue, and had little influence worldwide. Mostly, because most of the modern world had already gotten rid of slavery by 1865.

[QUOTE=WIKI]
Slavery was abolished in these nations in these years:

Sweden: 1335 (but not until 1847 in the colony of St Barthélemy)
Portugal: 1761
England and Wales: 1772 as a result of Somersett’s case
Scotland: 1776 as a result of Wedderburne’s case
Haiti: 1791, due to a revolt among nearly half a million slaves
Upper Canada: 1793, by Act Against Slavery
France (first time): 1794-1802, including all colonies (although abolition was never carried out in some colonies under British occupation)
Argentina: 1813
Gran Colombia (Ecuador, Colombia, Panama, and Venezuela): 1821, through a gradual emancipation plan (Colombia in 1852, Venezuela in 1854)
Chile: 1823
Mexico: 1829
British Empire: 1833, including all colonies (with effect from 1 August 1834; in East Indies from 1 August 1838)
Mauritius: 1 Feb 1835, under the British government. This day is a public holiday.
Denmark: 1848, including all colonies
France (second time): 1848, including all colonies
Peru: 1851
The Netherlands: 1863, including all colonies
The United States: 1865, after the U.S. Civil War (Note: abolition occurred in some states before 1865)
[/QUOTE]

But, I’m sure we influenced countries like Burma, China, and Saudi Arabia :dubious:. How selfless and noble of them to stop practicing barbarism after only a few hundred years.

15

Are you only going to talk in platitudes, or are you going to actually give us specifics?

16

[QUOTE=rwjefferson]
The tyranny of the majority is not the same as liberty and justice for all.
[/QUOTE]
Who decides what liberty and justice are? Should the majority be subject to the demands of the minority?

17

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
Unless you have proof that the destruction of indigenous cultures by Europeans and Arabs that occurred in conjunction with the imposition of chattel slavery by those outsiders on Africa would have happened regardless of the slave terade,** you are engaging in mere speculation**
[/QUOTE]

Bold mine, yes I am engaging in speculation.

Well lets then look at the conditions in African then (at the beginning of modern slave trade), not without problems, and way behind in technology in a period of European expansionism.

What were the fundenmental differences between the treatment of 16-18 century slave and the (non-jewish) slave stated in the Bible (as Jewish slaves were slaves only for 7 years, but then again the African slaves were most likely not Jewish anyway.)

You are infering that Africa has not advanced into first world status due to the population removed from the slave trade - is this correct, and if this is true what blame does the African who enslaved bear on this?

18

[QUOTE=rwjefferson]
Would you as a descendent of either patriot or enslaved, accept and hold equal right of peaceful pursuit as reparation for the sacrifice of your ancestors?
[/QUOTE]

I thought you considered "peaceful pursuit’, whatever the hell you mean by it, to be a right that should be equally held by all. What would anyone’s ancestors have to do with it?

FTR I am descended neither from slaves nor from slaveowners. Not my problem anyway.

19

[QUOTE=brickbacon]
You can’t be this stupid. I’m sorry, but this is the dumbest thing I have read in a long time. Reparations aside, this makes no sense whatsoever. The US wouldn’t be the US if they didn’t have millions of slaves to exploit. This “better place” was created by the sweat of slaves. Sorry if I’m not thankful that I can get the leftovers from a meal my ancestors created, while you fatten your belly. Even if it’s a better meal, I wouldn’t trade my dignity, freedom, or moral principles for it. Basic morality would dictate that enslaved people have next to nothing to thank their slave owners for.
[/quote]

And not only that, but to say that black Americans are better off than they would have been had slavery not existed is stupid if only for the fact that there would be no “black Americans” had slavery not existed in the first place.

“Black Americans” are not just Africans living in America. This ethnic group is the product of African, European, and to some extent Native American lineages. To say that this group is better off as kanic has suggested begs the question: Better off in relation to whom?

To the Europeans who were able to come over here, own property, vote, attain citizenship, and become educated? I think not.

Oh, to the Africans. To the people who don’t even live in this country, whose lives we feel comfortable dismissing as so deplorable that even slavery is considered a privilege in comparison. Yeah, them.

The comparisons that are the most obvious in determining who is “better off” just never get made. Its so much easier, I guess, to look at folks on the other side of the globe rather than look in our backyards.

20

[QUOTE=Fear Itself]
Who decides what liberty and justice are? Should the majority be subject to the demands of the minority?
[/QUOTE]
The real question is not “Who decides”, it is on what principles the is decision based. “We” understand the truth of inalienable rights; tyrants and the unenlightened do not. Prohibition of peaceful pursuit is tyranny; no matter the number of tyrants or form of government.

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
No.
[/QUOTE]
Why would the reparation of liberty for injustice not be just? If not on regulated equal right of peaceful pursuit, on what principles would you base liberty and justice for all?

r~