In Canada, my son is in a scout group that is about 50% girls, 50% boys. It seems to be working out pretty good. Many of these kids have been in the group since cubs when they were 8 or so. Now that they’re 11, 12, there is a bit more “separation” between the two sexes, but they still work together cooperatively during camps etc. The boys have their tents and “area” as do the girls, but they do cooking and cleanup tasks together, and participate together as a group in camp competitions, etc.
On the whole it has worked out quite well - no complaints from the kids.
Gender identity has nothing to do with sexuality or sexual orientation. You can be transgendered and gay, transgendered and straight, transgendered and bi, transgendered and asexual…but obviously none of this is relevant to a seven year old. It is also not about gender roles. You can be a transwoman tomboy, or a femmey transmale, for example. Being “butch” or “feminine” has nothing to do with it.
Transgendered people “know” their gender the same way that you know yours. Numerous examples have shown that gender is not a malleable or entirely cultural thing- the most famous example is [David Reimer - Wikipedia](David Reimer), who lost his penis in a circumcision accident, and was subsequently raised as a girl- including gender reassignment surgery and hormones. He never liked it, refused to pretend to be a girl at age 15, and eventually committed suicide.
We have no tools available to us that can change a person’s gender identity. Something in our heads knows what gender we are, and all evidence shows that this thing is not always tied to genitals, chromosomes or hormones. Science points to it being in the structure of the brain, and what is in the brain, apparently, trumps all. And while gender isn’t a big deal for most of us, all evidence shows that when whatever is happening in our brains doesn’t fit with what is happening in our lives, it’s not something that can be ignored, shrugged off or rationalized away. It’s real.
Peer-reviewed research confirms that transgendered people often know at a very early age. Most people figure it out around age 5. This makes a lot of sense- this is that age that most children begin being concerned about boys or girls. Read that article- it’s fascinating and occasionally heart breaking. You don’t have to “believe” it, but if you don’t believe it you are, according to what science knows, wrong and irrational.
I don’t think anyone advocates for non-reversible measures to be implemented in childhood. Nobody supports gender-reassignment surgery or anything like that. But if a parent and a child have decided that living as one gender makes their lives better- well, why not? What is your stake in ensuring that other people’s kids get raised according to your concept of gender?
You said that knowing your gender is gender identity, right?
I’m a girl. I just checked. Yes, I know that gender isn’t the same thing as sex, but if you were to hand me a list of typical ‘male’ and ‘female’ characteristics, I’d have a whole chunk of ‘male’ circled. Most of us are like that. Gender is kind of a continuum. But if a kid is saying at the age of two that he is a girl or wants to be a girl and the parents are continually reinforcing it, that doesn’t wave a flag at all?
What dictates gender? A bit of nurture and nature imo. Unless you can point to me some medical reason or biological supposition for trangenderism (is that a word?) I’m going to be confused as to how a kid who’s barely potty trained knows he is really supposed to be a she.
I’m also not sure it’s up to a kid’s mom that the kid should be labeled transgender at age 7. Yes, dress your child like a girl, put him in girl clothes, sign him up for Girl Scouts, call the local news. That’s really helping.
Oh, and I forgot to add: the mom and grandmother keeps referring to the boy as a boy, not a girl. She’s making it sound like “Bobby likes doing girl things and acting like a girl and wants to be in Girl Scouts because his sister did.”
I’m having the worst time restraining my instinct to blame your prejudice on your limited age (which I sussed unfairly from another thread).
I’m not saying you would have to give birth to a gender-confused child to relate; but maybe you would have to have some acquaintance with same in order to tolerate a dude in the Brownies; chick in the Cub Scouts. In other words: your own subjective experience simply isn’t a sufficient qualification for judging appropriate social constructs, even if you are a teacher. What you see for 7 hours per day isn’t necessarily Real Life. Even little kids know to behave according to social norms in order to avoid ostracism. Your school sample isn’t a fair representation of the Real World.
It’s about reconciling your inner self identity with your appearance. No matter what your traits, you feel female as your core identity. Transgender people, if you will, don’t feel that they’re “bits” match the identity they feel inside. If when you close your eyes you feel you’re a girl, despite having a penis- not an effeminate boy, or a boy who likes cooking or whatever- but a girl-- that’s transgender.
A tomboy is not transgender. A girl who is a science geek is not transgender. It’s brain wiring- these individuals feel that their outside bits do not match the core identity that’s on the inside.
ETA: we don’t yet have a language as to what to call these kids. It’s hard- I wouldn’t make too much that the grandma says “boy”, not girl.
You may freely blame it on my 26 year old/grew up in Iowa/white teacher/mom/ living in Denver/etc. background. I never said that my teacher experiences were hard data - like I said in the other thread on gender-specific schools, I support them. I think there’s value in it.
I don’t know what else to say, really. NPR and other outlets have done stories on parents with young kids who are transgendered. Perhaps this kid’s mom and grandmother just give off really bad vibes. “My boy has been a girl since the age of two, no I have never taken him to counseling, that Brownie leader shouldn’t be around children!”
Well that part I understand. I’m not sure how a 2 year old does, though.
I’m totally open to being wrong. I guess I just need more convincing than “it’s mean to disagree” or some such.
I thought the latest thing was to provide gender-neutral atmospheres for young kids who are like this and see what happens later? But they haven’t even talked to a shrink.
When I showed preference for the male gender at a young age - trying to change my name, wear ‘boy’ clothes, do ‘boy’ things - it was a result of abuse, not gender identity issues.
It doesn’t seem so strange to me. My kids gender identity was well in place very young- most kids know. I just believe that it’s so hard wired that somethIng feels wrong to these kids- fundamentally- and as soon as they can they put a name to it. There have been studies of trying to reassign gender when born with ambiguous genitalia and it just doesn’t work. The kids know.
Not every kid who wants to where opposite gender stuff is confused about their identity. But the ones who are really suffer.
We have brains. Part of that brain gives us our gender identity.
Our personality, hormones, genital structure, chromosomes, and social roles do not give us our gender identity. Part of that brain gives us our gender identity.
Sometimes this part of the brain is not matched with other gender-related things, such as what your genitals are like.
When this happens, it can be very difficult for the person if they are forced to live against their gender identity. I couldn’t tell you why it is so hard, but it is.
It’s not elegant. We don’t have a full understanding, and we don’t have any great solutions. But we do have solutions that vastly lower the death rate, and that vastly improve quality of life. For now, it’s the best we’ve got. The options are “Someone gets an imperfect and difficult way to live as their gender identify, or they live against their gender identity and brave the massive suicide rate.” There is, unfortunately, no option to wish the problem out of existance.
If he wasn’t born a girl, he shouldn’t be allowed to join. I don’t know what transgenderism has anything to do here. Acting like a girl doesn’t make you transgendered. I thought you actually had to have an operation done to be considered as much.
That’s wrong. People GET the operation because they are born transgendered, though not all choose to.
In fact, adults are required to live as the opposite sex for a length of time prior to being allowed to get the surgery.
As the thread has explained, the OP gets it wrong – the kid in question isn’t a boy. Ergo, she should get to join Girl Scouts just like any other girl, and let us be glad that the organization came to that conclusion.
There is a separate question as to whether actual boys should be allowed to join Girl Scout troops, which isn’t at issue in this case, but might be worth thinking about. I’m not sure where I’d come down on it in a perfect world, but it’s not a perfect world for the simple fact that the Girl Scouts is a moral, thoughtful organization and the Boy Scouts of America is run by a bunch of meatheads.
There is a significant population of boys who might want to join the Boy Scouts and are turned away because of bigotry – gays and atheists (ha ha, I slipped past 'em!) are all banned, and god knows the reaction a trans boy would get. As long as that inequality exists, one can assume there’s some population of boys who would want to join GS.
Why would you think that I think that? My post was part nit pick (Cub Scouts and Brownies, not Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts) and part indication that if you have one boy (transgendered or no) in a Girl Scout Troop, you are going to end up segregating him from the others at times, which might be worse than just sending him to Boy Scouts and letting him deal with any gender identity issues he has when he’s an adult.