Boy Scouts vs United Way

Great Debates
1

Ok, I am going to start by saying that i feel that the anti-Gay policy of the Boy Scouts National office is wrong. That being said, I feel, that it is based MORE on a overblown concern, that actual Homophobia. They are concerned that a Homosexual leader, off with a group of boys, could be dangerous- and they are right. Just like a Hetero male or a Lesbian woman out with a group of young girls, alone- could be dangerous. But I feel the risk is overblown, and could be reduced to 0 by having 2 adults with any group.

However, let us look at United Way- they have cut the Biy Scouts off because “they discriminate”, and so they do. However, per a recent article in the SJ mercury, United way has asked for “exeptions” to their non-discrimination policies for the following groups:

Girl Scouts: Girls only- sexist. Some Boy Scout troops allow girls, why can’t the Girl scouts allow boys? Besides, can you really see a lot of young boys wanting to join Girl scouts- they have “girl-cooties” you know. :smiley:

Senior Adult Assistance Agency: Seniors only- ageist. While I find this less unfair than the others, it brings in the problem of a 64 1/2 year-old refused help as they are 6 months “too young”.

Salvation Army: Only Ordained Ministers can work as “leaders”: religious bigotry. If the skills of a Minister were required, then why not a Rabbi, or a licensed therapist?

Support Network for Battered Women: will help and employ women only- sexist. Ok, I will admit that battered women are a much bigger problem than battered men, but men DO get battered by their spouses, and they need help, too.

So, by the U.W. cutting the Boy Scouts off, but NOT these others, they are being Hypocritical. It is “politically correct” to help these other discriminatory groups, but not the poor Boy Scouts. Is this right?

2

Thanks for the good news! A couple years ago, I specifically directed my contribution to the United Way not be donated to the Boy Scouts because of their discrimination. (Here, they let you “deselect” a group if you don’t want your contribution to go to them.) I also asked the United Way to explain to me what their policy was on supporting groups that discriminate because, for the reasons you have mentioned, I did realize that it was a subtle issue and that perhaps United Way had some sort of consistant policy on this. (So, while I was sure I didn’t want my money going to the Boy Scouts, I wasn’t as sure whether I felt United Way shouldn’t be supporting them at all…although I did have my leanings.) Unfortunately, they never responded…which I thought was kind of tacky since the amount of money I give to them through payroll deduction is non-trivial.

Anyway, since I still don’t know what their policy is, I am not sure how they make these distinctions. But, my guess at what they might find problematical about the Boy Scouts is the following: Yes, certain charitable groups sometimes set themselves up to serve certain communities, but that is different altogether than a group which sets itself up to supposedly serve everyone and then starts to discriminate against certain small segments of the population. In some sense, the Boy Scouts, by claiming to be a group open to the general public, gives up certain rights of discretion in deciding who to serve and not to serve.

The Boy Scouts are, in a sense, trying to have it both ways: “We are set up to serve all young men who want to be a part …Oh, but, if you are gay or atheist, beat it!”

So, that’s my take on it, but I would be curious to hear theirs.

3

You haven’t got the BSA’s position quite right. They claimed that the objection to gay leaders (and in theory, at least, gay youth members) is not based on fears of abuse, but rather that homosexuality ( in and of itself, even if the person is celibate) is not “morally straight” ( and in fact they already have rules prohibiting a leader from being alone with a child, and requiring two adults on trips). There also is , in at least some people’s minds, a bit of hypocrisy in saying something is an important value to a group, while it is never asked or spoken about.If it’s that important, you’d think they’d mention it on the leader application, but they don’t (only a vague statement that the applicant must possess the “moral,educational and emotional qualities” that BSA deems necessary)

regarding the other groups-

Girl Scouts- Boy Scout troops and Cub Scout packs do not allow girls ( other divisions of BSA do) and it was never a problem for UW, so there’s no reason to expect the Girl Scout gender restriction to be a problem.

One big difference between GS/BS and some of the other groups you mentioned ( battered womans shelter, senior centers) is that GS and BS portray themselves as being open to serve all girls/boys, not only certain ones. The gay prohibition could be used against youth members, as the atheist prohibition has been.The other groups limit what they do for practical reasons, not philosophical ( a single shelter or support group couldn’t effectively serve both battered women and men, etc), and no one group could serve every need (food banks don’t provide medical care)or even a couple of very different needs. It wouldn’t make sense to provide senior services to preschoolers or vice versa, or to say an agency that provides assistance to the deaf is discriminating against the blind.

I’m really not sure what you mean about the Salvation Army-they are a religion, and religions are free to discriminate in favor of their own members when hiring.

4

Actually, I was reading the National Review, and it said that the Girl Scouts are totally the opposite of the BS. Totally pro-gay and all that. How loverly!

(slight hijack)…Just the same, I do like one fact about the BS: the first Russian Boy Scout was Tsarevich Alexei, son of Nicholas II. (He was such a sweetie!)

5

Well, according to the UWs own 'anti-discrimination" policies, they are not- not to get UW money, in any case. The Supreme Court ruled that the BS could legally exclude gays- but UW still cuts them off.

In any case, UW admits these other agencies all are ‘discriminating’. They do not deny it. They just say that they want them to get UW $ anyway.

6

Indeed they are discriminating. As is any organization that doesn’t provide services to or accept as members absolutely anyone or hire people on a random basis.

Do you have a link to the article? I’d like to see exactly what the policies are.I find it rather strange that UW
would have a policy cutting off any organization that discriminates on any basis whatsoever.And I don’t see who UW would have to ask for exemptions from their policies

7

To begin with, not all those examples are truly of discrimination. As previously mentioned, most of those are just logistical concerns. Letting boys into the girl scouts would, well, complicate things. It seems to me that the GS and BS are in many ways just different branches of the same thing–serving everybody. Unfortunately, the BSA has some rather objectionable views. The same is true for most of these other groups–they are just serving a segment of the population because it is impossible for one group to serve the totality. I don’t think you called the GS or BSA for age discrimination, even though you clearly aren’t a member (at least in the same way) after a certain age. So the same goes for senior groups.

Sure, you get the occaisionally borderline case that unfortunately falls through, but you have to draw the line somewhere (and who knows, they may even have a forgiving appeals process or something of the like).

As for support for battered women, it would be incredibly unfortunate for them to have men in the same area(s). Incidentally, though, I know some men who do work for shelters–they just volunteer for paperwork jobs and such.
Again, this is a case of a group doing what’s necessary to serve the portion of the population it was designed to help.

The only case you cite with any real validity is the Salvation Army, which I still think is a weak case. They are not discriminating so much as hiring religious members for a religious institution. I see no reason why a religious group should have to hire an atheist, for example. That’s like saying that a Christian church discriminates becasue it won’t let a buddhis run its service. I guess if you want to be technical, it’s discrimination, but I don’t see that it’s a form that is harmful, that promotes hate or more discrimination, or that most of the population would object to.

I only let certain people into my house: my friends. Am I discriminating by not letting everyone in? Well, sorta. Is it incredibly asinine to worry about my discriminatory policies and wonder if I should every receive federal aid, should I need it? Yup.

8

DITWD said that the Boy Scouts

This makes me a bit edgy because it seems that the Boy Scouts feel that a gay man is more likely to be a threat than, for example, a straight male with a group of young girls (think soccer coach). Am I misinterpreting the Boy Scout position?

I agree with the United Way’s policy in regards to BSA, but I don’t know that much about the United Way. They don’t have any sort of obligation to BSA, that I know of. Why would it be hypocritical of them not to want to support groups that violate their mission/beliefs/whatever?

To continue with this hijack: I’m a strong supporter of the Girl Scouts. I’ve worked at GS camps, been a donor, and been a troop leader. In my experience, the Girl Scouts’ (unstated) policy toward gays/lesbians has been “don’t ask, don’t tell.” I’ve never known them to be “pro-gay;” quite the opposite, in fact. Of course, their behavior varies from Council to Council.

9

doreen: No sorry, cut the article out of a real paper Paper. However, you can do the Mercury News online. The author does attach his email, which I will list, but not link to: jboudreau@sjmercury.com. It is the CEO who asked the BoD for the exemptions.

Mtrr22: I am sure that the Boy Scouts feel that there policy of catering to the Non-Gay boy(and Girl) population is similar to the Girl Scouts catering to just Girls. After all, the BS exclude far less folks than do the GS. True, having Boys with the Girls would indeed “complicate thing”, but could you not say the same about having Gays with Heteros? As far as catering to only Battered women goes, where does the battered Husband go? They do exist, and they need help also. Or do we just ignore them, as they are the wrong sex?

10

The difference is that a soccer coach doesn’t take his girls on a campout…

FTR I worked at a boy scout camp for 10 summers, am still actively involved in scouting, and have had a friend who was gay and in scouting (but he was way ‘in’). All in all I wish the policy was more of the don’t ask, don’t tell sort. In all honesty (from the inside) this only seems to be a really big deal at the head office level. You can go to 1,000 meetings, campouts, etc… and the only time it would ever be a big deal was if two openly gay scouts wanted to tent together on a campout. Similarly in co-ed Explorer posts girls and boys never sleep together. ALSO - I personally know a leader who molested scouts and was convicted of child molestation and served prison time. He was straight but from what I remember was convited for molesting mostly boys but some girls (he was also a foster parent and molested kids in his charge). In this case molesting wasn’t penetration, just unwanted touching.

To their credit, to help prevent molestation, the BSA has a lengthy policy called two-deep leadership that absolutely demands two or more adults be present at all times, I have seen campouts where 30 scouts showed up with packs and gear bright and early on a Saturday morning only to have to turn around and go home because one leader was sick and they couldn’t meet the two-deep requirement.

11

Daniel,

I found the article, and your original post was a little unclear. The Unitd Way is not asking for the exemption, the Salvation Army is asking for the exemption from the United Way. The CEO is merely reccomending that the BoD grant it. It seems to me that if an organization is entitled to set its own policies, it’s also entitled to grant exemptions from it. Hypocritical ? I don’t think so. If the UW has granted exemptions in the past, presumably after the organization seeking funding has shown the UW sufficient (to UW) reason why it should be granted,either the Boy Scout divisions that lost funding ( not all of them did- the one that allows gays is still funded) didn’t request an exemption, or weren’t able to show a good reason why they should be exempt.The article also doesn’t state the non-discriminatory policy,and discrimination has to be specifically defined in the policy- otherwise a mental health agency would be discriminating against those who don’t need mental health services, but do need housing.

The Support Network for Batterd Women is a particular agency. That doesn’t mean there aren’t other groups that don’t serve both men and women, only men, only lesbians or only gay men ( In NYC, there are that many different sorts of groups).

How do you get the Boy Scouts exclude less than the Girl Scouts? The Boy Scouts exclude all girls under 14, and atheists and gays of any age.The Girl Scouts only exclude boys under 18 (they don’t prohibit atheists or gays and allow adult men to be leaders)

12

One clarification about the United Way. Local agencies can and DO decide to include the BSA as one of the possible recepients of funds (our local UW has the local BSA chapter listed as one of the choices on the signup card that I received at work)…many of the funding choice decisions are made at a local level…not a national level.

13

What a dilemna. As a former scout,and a big time supporter of the United Way, this issue has me going both ways. I know there were gays in scouting when I was in it, 20-odd years ago. Plus there was typical adolescent ‘exploration’ going on quite a bit among ALL of the kids. (One incident that I recall was a circle jerk to put semen in one of the gay scout’s pancake batter [he DIDN’T know this was happening]). So it’s notlike the Gay kids were corrupting the ‘poor straight’ kids. Usually the straight kids ganged upon the gay kids. So I guess that they were teaching usall valuable life lessons, huh?

14

I am troubled by things like: gays in some way are more likely to molest than straights, that as long as there’s no campouts, there isn’t the potential for problems, and that having two adults is the way to safeguard from these horrible events.

one at a time:

  1. Homosexuality and child molestation are two entirely different subjects. The key for molesters is the focus on a sexual relationship with an immature person, the relative sexes of the people involved is not relevant. There are molesters who attack same sex, as well as those who attack opposite sex as well as those who attack either.

  2. No campouts might (and I repeat MIGHT) make more difficult an occaision for penetration, but molesters are extremely skilled at getting kids to accompany them places. There’ve been kids molested inside the closets, cars, etc. The idea that if there’s no schedulued time to “sleep”, this will prevent molestatino is nonsense and unsupported by an examination of actual cases of molestation.

  3. Finally the “two adults” = safety rule. again, see comments in #2, but also keep in mind that anything is possible. There was a case (I think in the late 1980’s) in Grand Ledge MI (an up scale community near Lansing) where the Scout troop leaders, two brothers, were convicted of molesting many of their troop members over a period of years.
    To me, having worked with this population, the way to make your children safe is to teach the children.

  4. ANY time ANY one tells you to keep this a secret from your parents, tell, tell, tell, tell, tell, tell.

  5. NEVER go ANYWHERE alone with some one without your parents knowledge FIRST. (work out the details for school)this takes care of the “don’t go with strangers” rule that gets translated into “don’t go with strangers, but it’s ok to go with this person 'cause they seem nice and they lost their kitty…”. and gives the adult the chance to evaluate the situation.

  6. Tell your parents about ANYONE who wants to take your picture, give you presents, have you go with them somewhere alone even if it’s just to show you something really neat.

Kids do NOT think the same way adults do. I remember my son, when he was six assured me that he knew what “the dope man” looked like since he’d seen the GI Joe cartoon about one, they’d have purple hair and…

And, remember when you point out a specific person (for example if you know there’s a molester in your neighborhood) as “that’s a bad man, stay away from him” the child will also make the likely leap of faith that every one else is ok.

I also remember at age 8, being told that I wasn’t to cut through the woods without “a grown up” but my friends Stuart and Bruce talked me into believing it’d be ok, since they were each 8 years old, 8+8 = 16 and that’s an adult. (no, nothing happened except I got in trouble for cutting throught the woods).

Molesters are OFTEN in positions of trust in our community. Father figures, coaches, church leaders, librarians etc. In nearly all of the cases I’ve met, the molester had some legitimate connection with the child. The best way to protect your child is to make them an unsuccessful victim. (IMHO)

15

  1. Good lord, that’s an interesting butchering of my name…

  2. When there is an equally well funded, national “We Accept Flamingly Gay And Straight Boy Scouts of America”, I might reconsider my opinion of the BSA (former member, btw).

  3. The exclusion of gays is not integral to the BSA group, even if they managed to fudge it to look that way when their homophobia got the better of them.

  4. Groups are free to practice freedom of association, without * necessarily * being discriminatory (Of course the KKK is discriminatory, but for other reasons as well). As mentioned, no one group can serve everybody. Having a place where men stay in or next to the battered women’s shelter would be pretty durn stupid. If a group chooses to focus on a portion of the populace that they feel needs the most need, that’s their perogative and is hardly discriminatory.

That’s not what the BSA is doing. The Boy Scouts were designed as a group for boys, not a group for “boys who happen to fit our ever-narrowing definition of what we think is an ok way for them to be/live their life”. If the United Way sees this for what it is–and calls them on it–I don’t see how you can label that hypocricy.

16

Well, for some of the groups mentioned, there are legitimate, logistical reasons for restricting it to one group, as others have pointed out. For example, seniors have different needs that, say, the poor or the handicapped. An agency that cancentrates on just seniors can help them more efficently than if they try to help everyone.

For battered women’s shelters, some of these women just can’t be around men. I volunteered in a shelter in high school. I was slated to go to the boys and girls club, but they switched us around at the last minute because one of the women was afraid of all men, even teenagers. Also, there are some different issues, as I understand it, and some men may not be comfortable discussing it with women. (there’s a whole 'nother discussion in there, but it’s a tangent)

The GS are kind of borderline - there’s a reason for the separation, but it’s not a huge one. Sometimes young girls and adolescents need a little time with their own. Even now, there are some things that a women can say that will send men fleeing from the room. :slight_smile: Still, it’s not an integral part of scouting.

Having trouble supporting donations to the Salvation Army, but there is a distinction in that their website seems to say they will give to everyone, and not be too annoying.

I think the important idea is that the United Way supports all groups in general. That way it you have separate battered women’s and men’s shelters, but overall everyone is covered, and it’s done in a way that’s probably better for both groups. I couldn’t find any men’s shelters on their list of recipients, but some of the names are pretty difficult to tell. I do know men’s shelters exist in the SFbay area, if not in Santa Clara county. They do support coed clubs for kids, so boys do benefit from their funds.
http://www.uwscc.org/member.htm

I’d also like to second the distinction between gays and those who will abuse boys. One is about gender, one is about power or just being really sick. Of course, those who abuse make sure they are in a position where kids are available and vulnerable, but it doesn’t take an overnight trip, and it’s not necessarily about sex or being gay.

17

My sons scout leader was a woman. How about that!!!I was wary at first being an ex scout myself but she did a wonderful job. She started with the boys in cub scouts and when the local boy scout troop decided it was too large to accept new members she got angry and started a new one. She was leader until everyone of those boys either quit or became too old . Most of her boys became Eagle scouts.
The Boy scouts have been a guide for boys for many years. The Morally straight part of the oath is important and I have to agree with their position. If the UW does not want to support them anymore I hope that someone lets me know where to send my contribution.

18

The BSA, according to the USSC, has every right to discriminate. However, such a decision should have reprecussions, and I hope hitting them in the wallet speaks louder than their narrow-mindedness. Good for the United Way, IMHO.

Esprix

19

esprix- I do not think anyone here is defending the BSA (or at least its “official policies”). I certainly am not. But, what we are debating is since the UW will not support (generally) the BSA, why does it support those agencies that also discriminate- just in a more “PC” fashion.

20

In Seattle, it’s interesting that when the United Way stopped funding for the Boy Scouts, the leadership of both organizations found a workaround, where UW would give money to a BSA offshoot that did outreach work in public schools but didn’t require BSA membership.

It’s no small coincidence that many members of the United Way’s board, and leaders of the United Way’s biggest contributors, were in their youth Scouts. I think those men appreciate what the Scouts did for them and don’t appreciate the sudden veto power that a gay rights lobby suddenly had over the organization that they were trying to preserve for their sons.