Girls Scouts already has a position on accepting transgender boys that identify as girls. The mother was asking that the policy be applied to this case.
Whether this case is a transgender child is a different issue.
Jebandpunky, I’m not sure I’m following all of your post, but do your feelings also apply to children with obvious physical quirks? Children with big ears, fuzzy hair, lisps, or any number of pronounced features can be picked on by others as well, but no one advocates sheltering these kids from the world. And what of obvious physical handicaps? Shelter those kids, too, for their own protection? In fact, we’ve been moving away from attitudes similar to yours in favor of tolerance since passing the Equal Educational Opportunities Act of 1974 and the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act of 1990.
We need to teach tolerance and attempt to stop bullying rather than isolate children who are different.
I don’t see an extraordinary problem with this particular case, but it sets an awkward precedent. In this particular case, it’s probably just a case of the kid idolizing his older sister and wanting to do everything she wants to do (which is fairly normal regardless of anything sex-related). But what do you do when a 16 year old boy wants to join a troop of 16 year old girls? There, one has a strong suspicion that the motives are not quite so innocent. But it’s difficult to pin down a rule that would allow the innocent kid, and not allow the scheming Lothario.
I think that the best resolution, in this case, would be an unofficial tagging-along. The boy officially does not join the troop, but just tags along with his sister. If she doesn’t go to an event, then neither does he, and he only goes on overnight events if one of his parents does, too (in which case he stays in the same tent as his family). This probably gets the kid most of what he wants, but without having to set the awkward precedent, and without making the news.
Shouldn’t a group define who belongs to it, no matter what people from the outside think about the logic behind who they let in?
That is, the answer from the Girl Scouts perspective to the question of why would they let a boy in *Girl *Scouts is “because we say so”. It’s as simple as that, isn’t it?
Well, I’ve only seen one post that even marginally supported requiring the Girl Scouts to let this boy in. The others are simply stating their opinion on whether that’s right or wrong.
If they have the right to exclude people arbitrarily, we have the right to say what we think of it if we want to.
Troppus what i am asking if he can’t jump back defend himself when a girl scout leaders rejects him and instead goes crying to mom how is gonna handle when someone see him dressed this way in public and says something worse.No I don’t think we should hide anyone but he wants to go in public dressed like a girl he better be ready for the real world.It seem his mom shrugs her shoulders and says I don’t understand but if her child can’t stand up and I say i am proud enough to look someone in the eye go stuff it then he is not ready to walk around in public screaming it to world.In Which case one of these girls will have to stand up and defend him and if she gets hurt because he can’t defend himself and will run off crying .Someone idoit may make a stupid comment to someone in wheel chair and that is why they are idiot but most people don’t attack them over it. I grew up with disabilities and listen to kids say nasty things but I learned quick if can’t look them in the eye and tell them where to they keep making fun of you.
His mother is speaking on his behalf because, wait for it…he’s seven. Young children may have the ability to express abstract ideas, but a 7 year old simply shouldn’t be expected to possess the vocabulary, the life experience, or the gumption to man up. His mother is his advocate by rights and by social norm.
Can you elaborate on this? Are you saying that the kid’s being forced to dress and act like this against his will?
Where did you get the information that they haven’t taken the kid to a therapist?
Like a great many other medical condition, we don’t have a good idea what causes transgenderism. But that hasn’t stopped the bulk of the psychological community from coming together on the issue.
The Girl Scouts appear to not have a problem with it.
What should their attitude be, to avoid your flags?
So far, the evidence says that there is a boy who likes to wear girl clothes and play with girl things.
First, are you really comparing a boy born with a penis who had a botched circ to a kid who was born with a penis that wears girl clothes? You don’t even know if the kid we’re talking about is transgender! The kid isn’t intersexed. We don’t even know if he’s gay, straight, transgender, whatever. It was the Girl Scout group that said the word ‘transgender’.
There are clearly social cues and ideas that influence someone’s gender identity, whatever that is. Not too long ago, baby boys wore pink clothing. I doubt the two year old boys in pale pink suffered crises of masculinity. This kid in the article loved pink and Barbies and whatever to the point he seemed obsesssed, eg, “This is what girls do. This is what I like. Girls like pink. I like pink. Girls like princesses…” etc.
Cite? There have been some pretty even-handed shrinks that have suggested that parents maintain a gender-neutral house for awhile to see if the kid ‘grows out of it’ or continues. And then go from there. Some doctors advocate hormone therapy and some are totally against it. I doubt those who have hesitations are Bible-thumping Jesus freaks. If you could show me a majority consensus for the route for two to seven year old transgender children, I’d be obliged.
SCIENTISTS don’t even completely understand the issue.You act as though this is so cut and dry, you know, like, “Tobacco can cause lung cancer.” Are you saying that gender roles and identities aren’t influenced by culture and roles?!
You mean gender?
Do have stats on the number of kids who claim to be of the opposite gender and actually live as a member of the opposite sex as an adult? Because while transgneder children won’t be reprogrammed, some were never transgender to begin with. Maybe it’s a phase, maybe it’s effeminite boyhood, maybe it’s pre-gay, whatever.
I’m not denying there are transgendered 7 year olds in the world. Not at all. And I think kids should be raised in a happy and healthy home environment. But his drama-rama mama hardly paints the picture of a healthy household and her comments on the troop leader were pretty extreme.
My little brother who is 10 ‘boycotted’ Boy Scouts because he thinks they’re bigoted. And they are. When my mom and I were talking about this case today, she’s like, “I’m glad Girl Scouts has a policy on transgender children…but that boy’s mom sounds like a real flake.”
No. I’m saying the mother’s drama makes me wonder if the kid had continious positive reinforcement from her for doing that. In my area (where they live), that wouldn’t be surprising.
She said so. And according to this article (which I hadn’t read yet), she is now saying he is transgender - something I didn’t read before and wasn’t in the original article. Um, Yahoo doesn’t always have the best news reporting and I think they’re being unfair to GS, but there’s a link. Some new developments about the exchange were added, which is odd, since 9News was all on this before. First I’ve heard of some of these quotes.
Actually, yes. Society determines gender roles, but it cannot change whether or not a person identifies as male or female. We cannot change a cisgendered person into the opposite gender. We cannot change a transgendered person into the opposite gender. When we try, we make them so miserable that they kill themselves in droves. Culture, parents, nothing can change this successfully.
So who gets to determine what gender a person lives their life as? Themselves? Their parents? Or is it strangers on the internet?
I’m not entirely clear how much drama the mother has caused. She tried to enroll her kid in Girl Scouts. The Scouts said no, then changed their mind and said yes - but I’m not clear what the impetus for the change was. I haven’t seen any mention of lawsuits, and by the time 9News was reporting on it, the Girl Scouts had already relented, so it doesn’t appear that they were strong armed into allowing Bobby in by negative media coverage. So far, this seems to be a pretty low-drama event, all things considered.
Okay, that seems… really unwise. If the kid is really transgendered, or just really likes dressing as a girl, he’s going to be catching a lot of flack from society at large, and should really have some professional help to deal with all of that. I hope the mother reconsiders that.
From the NY Daily News: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2011/10/27/2011-10-27_girl_scouts_of_colorado_flipflops_on_refusal_to_allow_prepubescent_transgender_b.html
Would we really be shocked or surprised if a girl wished to join the Boy Scouts? The media loves to share when a girl plays little league baseball or football, so why is a tom-boy so easily accepted, but an effeminate boy raises everyone’s hackles?
If society determines gender roles and some have more than one gender, isn’t it fair to say that people’s view of what their gender is is partially determined by societal norms? Planned Parenthood agrees with me.
I never advocated trying to make the kid more masculine.
CP, you do know that **gender **and **sex **refer to different things, right?
I don’t mean that in any negative way, but you are consistently referring to gender, whereas transpeople generally don’t have difficulty with gender roles, but with what **sex **they are assigned to embody because of their visible genitalia, which in the vast majority of people does match our brain wiring, but for them, does not.
http://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/
You seem to be persisting in the belief that sexual identity is a cultural construct, simply because gender roles are socially constructed. That is not true. Sexual identity is determined by the mind, most likely during pregnancy due to various hormones present during development. It has nothing to do with gender roles which are influenced by culture. I don’t know how to put it more simply.
Uh, clearly I do. I am pretty sure I was keeping with the proper terminology there. If I grew up in a world with three or four genders, I may view my own in a different light. You say I’m confusing ‘gender’ and ‘sex’ when I’m clearly not, yet you talk about a kid’s sexual identity. While your gender is a part of it, I don’t think a seven year old has a completely developed sexual identity yet. But you can’t deny that his/her relationship with their gender isn’t influenced by outside factors. Who we are, how we see ourselves, how we act and what we value are influenced by our surroundings.
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“Would you be weirded out if a boy joined your daughter’s Girl Scout troop?”
No.
While there are certainly some issues that present alongside gender dysphoria that can be addressed by therapy (depression is a common co-morbidity thanks to the constant stress of an oppressive society) the simple fact of being transgender does not mean that a person, even a child, needs to be in the hands of a “professional” be that a psychiatrist, psychologist or whomever.
So the presumption that Bobby needs a therapist is out of line.
The only reason why so many trans people are in therapeutic care is because we have a “gatekeeper” system that requires psychiatric permission before trans people can access the medical care they need, be that hormone treatment, top surgery (chest reconfiguration for trans men), plastic surgery or genital surgery. Many psychiatrists take this further and rather than supplying the simple diagnosis which is all that’s required by the MDs to do their part, require long term therapy to deal with any and all psychological issues before they’re convinced that the patient is “prepared” or mentally “healthy” enough to move forward with transition. The system is, in itself, exceptionally stressful and often actively harmful to trans people who are caught in the catch-22 that they aren’t deemed mentally healthy enough to physically transition because of the pressures, complications and angst created by their lack of physical transition.
One other note, transgender is not a verb. People are transgender, not transgendered. It’s something people are, not something that’s done to them.
Lastly, Girl Scout policy says that young trans girls are welcome in their ranks. Young trans girls (or even feminine-leaning or feminine-presenting gender variant kids who may not be transgender but aren’t cisgender either) belong in Girl Scouts because the organization itself says so. If you don’t want your kid around non-cisgender kids, I’d say that the problem there isn’t Girl Scouts.
If you ask a very young child if they are a boy or girl, they generally answer with certainty. If you joke around and call them the opposite, even little ones will correct you. They know what gender mommies are and daddies are. They can identify who is a boy or girl very young.
That is the level of gender identity that is being discussed. Knowledge of self.
22 states have decided that socialization and exposure to group activities are beneficial to their citizens, so nearly half of our public schools allow home-schooled kids to join sports teams, academic clubs, and participate in other extracurricular activities. The powers that be have decided that there are more learning and growth opportunities in a diverse environment for everyone involved.
For the OP and others who may feel concern about the mother’s role in Bobby’s attitude, wouldn’t exposure to a group of peers and parents/volunteers be a great place for Bobby’s whole family to get input and support? I mean, if you feel motivated to speculate on Bobby’s mother’s parenting skills, wouldn’t you love the opportunity to get a crack at them both, and participate in Bobby’s growth and development? Instead of siding with the poor put-upon conservative parents forced to decide whether or not to allow their daughter to remain in an inclusive troop, shouldn’t we err on the side of the child with challenges? Let the village raise the child.
As IvoryTowerDenizen said, troop activities aren’t limited to girls-only projects. Bobby may benefit greatly not just from the opportunity to fit-in, but might develop some gender-neutral interests and skills.