Yikes, it’s my day for being misunderstood!
Rick, I was trying to be sarcastic, but I did not want to use the ‘rolleyes’ smilie. I just thought that the poster I was answering was beating a dead horse by constantly saying the phrase you quoted.
I agree with you 100%
I fly for business and my family and I will be flying this September 11th on a vacation. I will be going over some ‘worst-case’ scenarios, like the suggestions in this thread should, God forbid, this comes up in real life.
Perhaps it’s worth looking at from another angle: if your plane is hijacked, it will get shot down (actually, they tend to use missiles these days), so those on board have nothing to lose by fighting back.
Until you are on a hijacked plane and actually punch a terrorist in the face, it is all just posturing.
Um…isn’t that the point?
Besides, I think you mean “moo”. Kind of like a cows opinion. No one cares… It’s moo. [/obligatory Joey Tribioni reference]
IIRC, it’s a reference to a Jay Mohr bit where he jokes about retaking a hijacked plane with his trusty ball-point pen. The click click is him clicking the point in and out.
I agree, maybe we should only speak of things that have already happened, and only in the past tense, you know, to avoid the appearance of posturing
:rolleyes:
BMalion no offense, but maybe you should look back at your own posts before clowning someone else’s:
I mean, reading this quote, it would suggest that we cease all rambling “moot” discussions here and stick only to constructive, active topics. That kinda misses the point of a message board, dontcha think?
I pity the idealistic idiot who in 2004 would even attempt one of the old-fashioned “I’m diverting this plane to Cuba” hijackings.
It would depend…
On how near my ex would be to the target. 
I apologize if I offended anyone with my usually lame attempt at biting wit. Seems I need a few more lessons in writing a coherent post.
Thank you for your patience.
Some calibration might do others some good as well.
Calibrating…Calibrating…Calibrating…tic…tic…tic…
I don’t take offense to BMalion’s posts. This is a sticky topic, and it’s easy to get punchy in posts. Especially if people posting are doing other things whilst posting. Personally, I want to sit next to msmith when a terrorist jumps up and tries to take over a plane with three of his cohorts…may I then demonstrate my posturing and rally some stranger friends to help subdue the antagonists. When done and bloody, I’ll calmly return to my seat and continue reading my popular mechanics, and maybe do a little sky-mall shopping.
Yeah!!
When you’re done clunking their heads together like Moe from the Three Stooges, could you bring back some of those mixed snacks?
I’m pretty sure my inclincation would be to fight - however, that’s a bit of a problem. Granted, “it’s not the size of the dog” and so forth, but I’m just over five foot tall, female, and aging >sigh< There’s no way I’m the equal of, say, a 30 year old trained commando a foot taller and a hundred pounds of muscle heavier than me. The “scream and leap” approach is all very well if you’re big and powerful, but it won’t work for the likes of me.
That’s why I fight sneaky.
People do underestimate me - which is how I wound up beating the crap out of two armed (knives) attackers in my past. They don’t expect the cute little girl to fight that well, or that ruthlessly. But I’m not going to be taking on the Bad Guys in full-frontal attack… naw, I’d be the one sneaking up behind with a broken bottle or a shoelace and go all quiet and quick for the throat.
The other consideration - beyond the fact that however much I’d like to kill the Bad Guys with my bare hands and eat their liver (or other appropriate organ) just to horrify other Bad Guys into terrified awe of my fighting prowess I may not be the best choice in regards to physical strength and size - is that I am a pilot. Once you subdue the Bad Guys wouldn’t you like to land the airplane, as opposed to crashing it? Granted, I’m not a jet pilot and our chances would still be quite iffy (as related in other related threads) but I’d still have better odds than someone with no flight experience whatsoever. If I get killed or maimed in a fight to take down terrorists I can’t help out with Phase II.
Of course, saying all that makes me feel like a wimp - but reality is reality. If no one else made a move I just might be the first to run screaming down the aisle, but if some big male passengers took on the Bad Guys (and I think that IS the most likely scenario) then I’ll step forward afterward to help out any way I could.
pre 9/11 I probably would have cowered in my seat.
post 9/11, well, I’d like to fight. I’m not a big girl, but I’d try my best. As long as I had had enough cocktails downed, I would be game for anything.
Oh, I’d love to fire off a quick ‘yes’ to this question, but the truth is, I’m not the brightest bulb on the tree and the whole thing might be over before I take my headphones off so’s I can rifle a little deeper into my bag for that elusive bag of M&M’s I was so sure I’d brought with me.
Plosphr, I would certainly have your back if I had a clue as to what the heck all this scuffle was about, but as it usually takes me a few slack-jawed blinks to figure out that I’m holding up the line at the bank, I’m not sure you want me on your team:
Assuming I was sitting near you in 1st class, (yeah right) I would probably be 3/4 through my second Bloody Mary at this point, and while I know from experience that horseradish stings when flung into the eye, I’m not sure, based on your scenario, that I would know into whose eye I should fling it. Remember, I’m listening to ‘light classics’ and rummaging around in my handbag when I see you fly out of your seat and attack some guy. Unless he’s wearing a t-shirt that says “F*ck Cuba, We’re heading for the Sears Tower” I’m pretty sure it would take me a couple of moments to figure out on which one of you I should sacrifice my cocktail.
Once I figured it out, though, I’d be right behind you brandishing my celery stick.
Yes. After 9/11 there’ll be fewer of the “land in Cuba” attempts like PunditLisa mentioned and any hijacking will probably end either in a field or building like 9/11. Dead if you don’t fight, slight chance of stopping them if you do.
Weren’t you in Die Hard?
You know, Broomstick, I’d never really considered this before. I’m a pretty big guy (6’ 2", about 220) and I’m used to being in control of a situation, especially on an airplane. I always figured that if I was in the back of an airplane (i.e. not flying it) during a hijacking that I would be one of the first people to react and start to fight back. Heck, if I can prevent the terrorists from getting into the cockpit then we’re going to survive. But I also become a 100% chance of survival if someone is needed to fly the airplane. Hmmm.
I think that my actions have been thought through based on my knowledge of security procedures that have been put in place post 9/11. I’m basing my actions on the fact that it will take the terrorists a long time to get into the cockpit, if they can do it at all. If that cockpit door is closed when they “jump”, then it is staying closed despite whatever happens in back. Prior to 9/11 flight attendants carried keys that could open the flightdeck door anytime. That is how the terrorists got access - they killed a flight attendant and used her keys to open the door and attack the pilots. Today, we must unlock the door from the flightdeck to allow anyone up front. There are many ways that we verify if the person trying to get up front is legitimate, none of which I can describe. Suffice it to say that if the bad guys try to get up front they are going to find it MUCH more difficult than before, if not impossible. (The new doors are bulletproof, so no shooting into the cockpit to get rid of us either).
What does this mean for a hijacking situation? Well, the terrorists know that new doors have been put on aircraft. They know that getting through them will take a long time, and might not be successful. If they want to make the airplane a missile like in the 9/11 attacks they will need a long, uninterrupted period to work at getting that door open. For that to happen they need compliant passengers.
To get compliant passengers they can try two tacks: the old “we just want to fly to Cuba” ploy or the “kill someone and scare them all” ploy. The Cuba ploy will most likely be met with disdain from today’s public, so they will probably go for the “scare them stiff” tactic. If they do this, expect them to eliminate able-bodied males as quickly as possible. Expect the terrorists to attack whoever is near them that appears threatening in the “takeover” phase of the attack. They then may round up all able-bodied males and kill them one-by-one as their “demands” are not met until they have a cabin full of compliant passengers. Meanwhile, two terrorists have been hacking away at the cockpit door. If the airplane is over land, we can probably land before they break through the door. If the airplane is overwater (or some inhospitable jungle or desert) they may be able to get through the door before we can find a safe place to land.
In both of these cases, the way to minimize casualties is to attack the terrorists as soon as they make their move. If they take over the back of the airplane but fail to get into the flightdeck and see that we are about to land safely, what’s to stop them from going through the cabin and killing everyone on short final? If we can’t get the airplane down they will have unlimited time to get through the door and kill us, in which case everyone in back will die as well.
So my initial response is the same - I will fight as soon as possible, knowing that I will be preventing as many deaths as possible. And by fighting, I mean grabbing the greatest defensive weapon known to a passenger - the seat cushion. Remember all those speeches about your seat cushion being usable as a flotation device? You snort, think “Yeah, right” and continue doing the crossword. Well, the FAA takes that seriously. By being a flotation device the seat cushion has to not only be removable, but also has to have a strap or handle for you to hold onto. Hmmm…a big, thick cushion that is removable and has a strap running across the bottom. Rip that thing up and use it like a shield! Strap one on each arm, put them together and charging a knife-weilding terrorist becomes much more survivable. If you survive, so does everyone else.
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Switching gears
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And for everyone in this thread who has that fighting spirit - let me say thank you. The thing that saddens me every single day since 9/11 is that we are forced to treat our passengers as the “enemy”. I know that the people that fly on my airplane are just trying to get where they want to go, and I just want to get them there safely. But because of a few bad apples everyone gets treated like a “suspect”. This frustrates me every time I go through security and see what happens.
But when I stand in my doorway and say hello to people boarding my aircraft, I am heartened. Despite the best efforts of the FAA, TSA and airport parking police, people still get on my airplane with a smile on their face. They are happy, energetic and full of life. There are the occasional grumps and malcontents, but they would probably gripe about a beachfront sunset hurting their eyes. For all of you who can still smile when you get to the airplane I say welcome aboard. I’ll also be the one smiling and saying good-bye when you leave. And during the entire flight if we work together, we’ll never have another 9/11.
From me to you: 
From you to me: hopefully nothing worse than a :wally when I prang on a landing in La Guardia!
Happy and safe flying to all!
Pilot 141 Yeah for the most part we are happy when we board your aircraft. We are traveling either for enjoyment or because of business. And most of us actually enjoy travel despite what TSA can do.
I don’t know what airline you fly for, but I would be happy to fly with you anytime, anywhere.
Many happy landings.
Circumstances vary, of course, and it’s impossible to foresee everything, but despite being a big, brave, in-charge he-man kind of guy with strong alpha male tendencies, I could conceive of a whole bunch of situations where you should be the very LAST person to charge the Bad Guys. For the very plain reason that you CAN fly a jumbo jet. It’s not just a matter of survival for those aboard - you also represent the best chance of avoiding ground casualties. Not to mention that you could cope better than any of the rest of us if the airplane wasn’t in pristine condition. Or the weather was bad.
Nope, you shouldn’t attack unless absolutely necessary. If there are other big, strong, alpha male types around you need to let THEM take on the risk of dealing with the Bad Guys. Much as it may grate on your emotional nature, you need to be guarded in such circumstances. Pure survival logic - maintaining you intact and functional takes priority over your personal feelings.
That said - would they have to go through the door? I’m told the new doors are like little bank vaults. But a jumbo is BIG - could they get down into baggage and bore through the inner workings to emerge through the floor boards or ceiling, bypassing the door? Sure, it would take time - but they could, potentially, work unseen. Would probably need a long flight - but they’d be targeting those for the fuel load anyway if they were opting for a 9/11 style of attack. What do you do if the Bad Guys are inside the Fortress Cockpit?
Reassure me, Pilot141, that they couldn’t go around that door somehow…
to go off on a tangent here, why not have multiple antiterrorist countermeasures available from the cockpit…
High-tech;
have canisters of a knockout gas in secure sections of the aircraft, designed to pump into the passenger compartment, any potential “terrorist-like” activity, and the pilots push a button in the cockpit, releasing the knockout gas and putting everyone to sleep, land at the nearest convenient airport and remove the terrorists
low-tech; depressurize the passenger compartment, if you’re flying at a high enough altitude, wouldn’t the sudden drop in pressure cause loss of conciousness?
if i was on a hijacked aircraft, i’d have a hard time deciding what to do, fight or wait, not because i’m nonconfrontational, far from it, the fact remains is that i’m an “armchair pilot”, i’ve flown a Cessna 180 Skywagon and a Piper Super Cub (once the pilot got them airborne), so i know the basics of keeping a plane aloft and know in principle how to put the aircraft safely back on the ground, i could be easily talked thru a landing, it might not be a “greaser”, but my fellow passengers could walk away from the landing…
to be perfectly honest, it’s not too difficult keeping a plane aloft, once airborne they pretty much fly themselves, the tricky part is safely putting it back on the ground
(do modern jetliners employ the “flareout” landing style used on private aircraft, or is it more of a reduction in airspeed type of touchdown?)