I almost 100% agree with you; my only quibble is whether “misogyny” is the best lens through which to see this. I think this is one of those rare cases in which boys are more restricted than girls, and it’s helpful to see this as the misandrist bullshit it is, punishing boys for self-expression in a way that girls aren’t.
Yeah, there’s probably some misogyny tied up in it, because people are complicated and stupid that way; but recognizing how this rule’s primary harm is to boys helps us understand the real perniciousness of gender (and sexuality) based dress codes.
That’s exactly what I would be afraid of. And I think that if I were a parent, I’d consider myself irresponsible not to consider such a thing. One thing we forget is that children are not miniature adults.
Bullying isn’t allowed in schools, obviously. It doesn’t prevent it from happening, and I don’t want to see a child of mine coming home saying he had the living shit beat out of him. Going to the principal afterwards isn’t going to undo it.
That’s a good point, but the comparison is inapt: We’re talking about a kid at school, where, as I said, there are rules and teachers and administrators, not a club or a house party where it’s just them and the other guests. Schools impose rules and enforce rules all the time, and they are just as capable of enforcing the rules against assault and harassment as they want to be.
I fully agree with this sentiment, and I would raise any of my own kids the same way, but it’s inapt for another reason: In tackle football, concussions are pretty much inevitable. There are rules being enforced, but they’re not rules which prevent concussions, and they can’t be without changing the nature of the game into something like touch football. Again, there’s nothing inherent about school which leads to assault and harassment, and if that happens, it’s entirely due to the lack of will on the part of the adults to enforce the rules in place.
I understand what you’re saying, but in this case it would amount to protecting the child from becoming a whole, healthy person.
Why does he want to wear a dress? And specifically, what style of dress does he want to wear?
I don’t think boys(men) who want to wear dresses are all questioning their gender identity. Some might simply like the style choice a dress offers. However, there are really no choices for men other than the kilt.
Women’s dresses(not talking about children’s clothes)are designed for women’s bodies. Typically, they hug the waist/hips, have extra space for the boobs. Accentuate the female form. A man isn’t going to look nice in that.
Does this boy want something with frills? Something in taffeta? Or does he want something more simple, smock like. The parents could find out these things and make(find)a dress more suitable to him. He could start a trend.
There are two dress codes. The school has one and this family has one. The school may or may not approve of boys wearing dresses, but this family has a dress code that stipulates when family members go out in public, they dress in such a way as to not attract excessive attention that may be socially disruptive or harmful to family dignity. How people react to your demeanor in public reflects on all of us.
The adults in this family even have a right to enforce a dress code inside the house, but if you want to wear a dress in the house and you feel comfortable with that, we have no problem with it. But not outdoors or when we have company.
My family had a very similar rule: first incarnation was in my birth family where we were all very careful to ‘fit in’ as much as possible to avoid official attention for being homeschooled and for being part of what I learned later was a repressive cult but at the time considered a persecuted religious minority.
From that attitude I learned that ‘fitting in’ and social conformity was never actually someone’s true personality or inclination or beliefs, but just an act people ‘put on’ to fly under the radar and prevent anyone else from knowing their true lives. Lesson learned? Never trust anyone you meet in public, because they are just faking it.
Later in other families the variant was ‘you can paint your butt blue and worship Baal in the privacy of your own home but when you are in public you will conduct yourself as a properly-raised Christian child so that you don’t shame this family.’
From that I learned that only Christian children are ‘proper’ or well-raised (meaning if you weren’t then the state will come take you from your family), that any other lifestyles other than Christian are somehow shameful, and once again, that being ‘yourself’ in public is dangerous and wrong.
Yeah sure - it’s safer that way, as individuals or even as a family, to avoid attention or to just choose to fit in. I’d never want anyone to be outed or come out unless they were sure of their ability to deal with the (horrid and stupid and hateful) consequences. But if you start with that attitude, then progress won’t ever be made because everyone will self-censor and ‘the public’ will never HAVE to change their opinions because they never have to be faced with real people who are different from them.
Yeah, I feel pretty strongly about this, as well as pushing this attitude on a kid without any context or explanation. If his parents just flat out said “No” with no rationale, I don’t see how he as any choice but to feel like he is wrong, or bad, or broken to want to do or be something different than “everyone” else. He will never learn healthy ways of asserting his differences, nor will the people he comes in contact with learn healthy ways of accepting differences. How very sad.
I am not a parent. I have never been a parent, and, given my mental state, I may never be a parent. I have baby sat, but I was almost always the cool friend who let them do what they wanted while making sure they were safe and not causing trouble, rather than any sort of discipinarian. So, in short, I have no experience with this from that angle.
But I do have friends who talk about how they were raised. I have friends who were just told “I said no” for a long time. And, in my personal experience, they were more likely to challenge those ideas. As was commonly known, the strictest parents usually had the wildest kids in college.
So in no way I do support any form of telling the kid “no, because I said so.” Maybe it might occasionally be necessary, but it should be rare, and this is definitely not one of those situations, IMHO.
Even if you did teach your kid to blindly follow authority, is that really a good thing? It would seem to me that this leads to people who value authoritarianism.
I don’t know how to actually deal with this particular situation. I just do not at all approve of that particular solution.
I agree. Even a couple of experimental times worn to school will be remembered for years afterward, and it’s a guarantee that he’ll be bullied for it, even many years later. Kid-society has eternal memories and merciless judgement.
i think that goes a little far. same as any other authority, teachers not gonna stop every transgression, but if there is more than just lip service to the “no bullying” policy; if there is a culture of politeness that is encouraged and promoted, the teachers absolutely have the power to affect how students are treated by one another. teachers have as much or as little control as the amount of effort they put into it.
yes, children tease each other, it’s how they try to understand the hierarchical system we social animals live in: where do i fit in? you dont fit in! haha you’re an outsider!
and some escalate that teasing to bullying, and you’re right, in the grand scheme of things, you’re not gonna stop it.
but, if the school fosters a safe environment, and their homelife is also someplace where they are accepted, follies and all, then children can handle the teasing and bullying of growing up.
the problems arise when that bullying is tacitly endorsed by the school when little or nothing is done, or when they are stifled at home and made to feel as if they are wrong for feeling, even temporarily, different for the status quo.
children are going to get picked on, sometimes violently so. trying to prevent that is like howling at the rain. the best thing to do, is to make as many places as possible where a child can come in from that storm to feel as safe as possible, put on some dry clothes and ready themselves for the next storm.
As a liberal father, I would say no. Mainly to stop bullying, but also to not be distracting to others. A 7 year old doesn’t have the maturity to navigate those waters.
Hell to the no. Granted I might be at an unusual school, but I’d be 100% ready to handle something like this, and I’d come down like a goddamn jackhammer on a kid who engaged in bullying over it.
Which isn’t to say it wouldn’t happen–but bullying that happens in a setting where the bully is clearly ostracized and penalized for his behavior, in which the folks in charge emphasize that it’s the kid in the dress who’s in the right, tends not to be very effective bullying.
So a 7 year old girl in his class says to him on the playground while he is wearing a dress.
“You’re weird! You’re a boy not a girl but you’re dressing like a girl. Stay away from me and my friends. We’re real girls not fake girls!”.
What’s the can of jackhammer style whoop ass you are going to open on that 7 year old girl for saying that to your son? Secondarily what level of interpersonal conversational control and monitoring are you expecting from one or two teachers monitoring a playground full of kids?
Maybe you dont know what patronizing is, I’m sorry for that.
Stating a fact (assuming it **is **a fact) can be patronizing, doncha know?
If you’re happy with contradicting yourself, knock yourself out. Welcome to the 3rd millenium.
Were you assigned a species? Were assinged that you have two kidneys? The word assign, in this context at least, has the idea of forcing something
Also, your sex is determined, not your gender, at least in the “it’s-a-social-construct” way.
Penis? Your sex is male
Vagina? Your sex is female.
In a very, very small number of cases, this doesn’t work; it doesn’t follow that the method is wrong.
Since the quote was about gender, it’s all about that.
Parents/society have the power to help a person’s understanding and expression of their nature. They can cause the person to express their true nature for years or decades. They can cause them to be happy, fulfilled and unfrustrated in the attempt to live the truth. But they can’t change their nature, however, they can guide them into understanding and living through internal confusion.
Good post, and also a reason why I like school uniform policies. It helps develop learning concepts that attire is not purely about the individual but is also about societal roles and function. To a 6 year-old it could be contextualized at an appropriate level and still show empathy.
“You know how daddy wears a suit and tie to work, and doesn’t wear his ComicCon Captain America cosplay outfit? There are right times and right places for what you want to wear…” or “Do you know why those firefighters aren’t wearing a dress or their baseball uniform at the fire station?”
Ok, we’ll take your uniform idea. I’m in the American South, and I’ve never once seen a school with unisex uniforms. There’s very clearly a set of “girl” uniform clothes and a set of “boy” uniform clothes, and in the (admittedly religious) schools that mostly institute them, it is not even allowed for a “girl” to wear the “boy” style uniform, let alone vice versa.
Would you allow and fight for your boy child to wear a girl’s uniform if he consistently wanted to? Or what would your adjusted reasoning be to deny his request? What if your girl child wanted to wear the boy’s uniform clothes?
Short summary: 5YO boy likes wearing dresses - not to school (this is in UK, so school requires a uniform), but pretty much everywhere else. He has been banned from a church-operated afterschool group for it. The group organizers claim it’s upsetting/confusing for the other children, but no other parents have offered any specific complaint about it. His parents are looking for a different group who won’t require him to wear traditional boy’s clothes.
