Would you support mandatory home visits for all parents?

Great Debates
41

That is the ninth amendment, which has no bearing upon the state governments. The Fourteenth amendment connects several of the first ten (the first, the fifth, etc), to the governments of the state, but not the Ninth.

So unless you can show a SCOTUS case which established an unalienable right to educate your own children, then you cannot argue, based upon the vague language of the Ninth amendment, that such a “right” exists, much less would be binding on the States…

Says who? You can’t just come up with a ‘right’, and say its protected by the Ninth amendment.

Kirk

42

A surprise visit? Yeah, that’s be great. Do you know how many kids would be removed, just because they visited on an off day?
What if they visited my house on a day that I was having a migraine? (not a “headache”, mind you, a full-blown migraine).
I’d be walking around looking quite literally like a strung-out junkie or a drunk on a three-day bender…shaking, sweating, bloodshot eyes, unshowered, throwing up…

The house would look like a hurricane had blown through, toys all over, the kids would be in their jammies at noon, telling the caseworker, “Mommy’s been in bed all day and didn’t make us any lunch! Granny had to come take care of us again because Mommy’s sick.”
I’d come off like the worst mother in the world.

Any other day would be fine, but just my luck they’d chose the one or two days a month that I get a migraine to come visit.

43

Surprise visits, whether for homeschoolers or what, would be wrong, IMO. That, to me, appears to presume guilt, which is not a posture our government should ever take.

44

Kirkland1244, I only accept your claim that “education and religion should be total strangers” when you preface that with “public”. I have absolutely no problem with private education of a religious nature.

It used to be true that the majority of home schooling families were ultrareligious nuts. This is no longer the case. More and more families are homeschooling because there are simply no suitable schools in their area. Sometimes, this is due to educational quality; other times, it is due to schools which are actively dangerous for children to attend. Forcing parents to put their children in harm’s way for the sake of uniformity is simply wrong. It has no place in our, or any other, society.

45

Kirkland, you don’t get it. It’s not my obligation to prove that a right exists. It’s yours to prove that it doesn’t. That’s what the Ninth says – and the Ninth expressed an ideal that applies to our entire form of government. And let’s not forget the 14th.

In any case, the site Cessandra links has a lot of good case law references that are pretty clear on the right of parents to determine the nature of their children’s education. There’s even an 1926(?) case that held that states cannot force children to attend public schools. The argument does not seem to me to be hampered at all by deleting the word “public”: it seems to me that it still holds for forcing children to attend schools at all.

46

Homeschooled kids and parents still have to answer to someone, though, don’t they?
Not with home visits, of course, but for testing and curricuulm? Just to make sure the kids are actually learning, right?
(I know nothing about, so feel free to correct me.)

47

A public education is no guarantee that kids are being taught facts. My 7th grade science teacher “taught” us that blood is blue before it leaves the body; a widely-held belief at the time, but now known to be non-factual. When my 15-yr-old was in public school, 6th grade, she was “taught” that Columbus discovered America, and that the nursery rhyme “Ring Around The Rosie” was about the Holocaust! Meantime, my younger daughter, then 9, was concerned every time I drank a beer, because she had been “taught” that even one drink of alcohol can be harmful! When I confronted her teacher about these scare tactics, her teacher said “we’re just trying to prevent problems down the line”. I didn’t like my kids being taught fallacy as fact because the school board had an agenda.
My point, of course, is that the kids being in public school is no guarantee that everything they are being taught is fact!

48

I was “taught” that same thing. Says a lot about the Maryland educatioanl system :wink:
Or maybe that should be :rolleyes:
My teacher told us the oxygen in the air turns it red.

49

BiblioCat, it varies.

There is quite a bit of hypocrisy involved here since private schools are not regulated in any state. Many states do not require private schools teach any particular curriculum, screen their employees for criminal history, or require their teachers have any particular credentials; or if they have such requirements make it very easy to avoid them (quite often, religious schools are exempt and so all you have to do is make the school “religious”). Imposing stricter standards on home schooled children than those that are imposed on children in private schools is hypocrisy and evidence that the restrictions are not being put in place to serve the state’s supposed interest in the education of children.

50

You are merely justifying your desire to stamp out these religious beliefs. That does not mean you do not desire it.

It is not surprising that you are brimming with confidence that your beliefs are correct and those of others are “mumbo-jumbo”. This is not uncommon, particularly in the case of people who advocate brainwashing. Still, one principle of a free society is that people can believe what they want, in spite of the conviction of others that it is “mumbo-jumbo”. And pass this belief on to their children.

Given the level of hatred you’ve displayed related to this issue (in other threads) I am skeptical that these can be unrelated. But, as I said, I am speculating. I could be wrong.

Your desire for unfettered equality is shared by non-radical gays. It is your proposed method of achieving this objective that makes you a radical.

OK, you can qibble with the term “activist”.

Interesting. Just out of curiosity, have you ever written about your conviction that the world would be a better place if only millions of fundamentalist Christians would be killed? Or about your desire to personally kill their leaders?

Makes you wonder about the education system out there.

51

Er, I meant to say “well-regulated”. There are regulations, they just aren’t very well enforced and are riddled with loopholes, put there deliberately to keep the schools from being effectively regulated.

52

So, theoretically, I could pull my kids out of public school, say I’m homeschooling them, and then let them sit in front of Cartoon Network all day, because there’s no regulation and no one is going to be checking up on me?

(not that I’d actually do that, I’m just asking in theory)

53

BiblioCat, it’s likely that you’d be expected to put your kids through some state performance testing to prove that your children are in fact learning. However, in most states you could let them spend all day watching the Cartoon Network if that is enough to enable them to pass the tests.

Some states do make you produce “records” that “prove” that your children are being “taught”, but that’s an exercise in stupidity because those can be readily faked, in an effectively untraceable manner, by any remotely competent individual.

Most of the problems faced by home schooling parents do not flow from the legal application of applicable regulations. They flow, rather, from the various forms of harassment available to public school administrators and local government officials, including Child Protective Services (or the local equivalent). These actions are not generally grounded in law, but simply in power, and are generally being used to punish nonconformity.

54

It depends on the state. I live in Texas, and I do not ever have to initiate any contact with any government official about my homeschooling. If the school district asked why my children aren’t in school, I would only have to tell them (might have to write a letter) that I am homeschooling and that I teach the required courses (reading, spelling, grammar, math, and good citizenship).

I suppose that I could sit my kids in front of the tv all day, but if I didn’t want to deal with my kids, wouldn’t it be easier to send them to public school and let someone else watch them?

55

I wanted to elaborate on that:

How do you get a kid to actually sit in front of the tv all day? Mine certainly wouldn’t. They won’t even sit through a full 30 minute Veggie Tales unless it’s one they haven’t seen before. I realize that my kids are young (the older two are almost 4 and almost 5), but kids get bored and they want you to entertain them. They get hungry and want you to make lunch. They get thirsty and want you to pour them a drink. They want you to fix their broken toy and help them put together their puzzle. They want to sit in your lap and read what you are reading. They want to go outside, and can you come with them, please? Please, please, PLEASE?

If I didn’t enjoy doing things with my kids, this would get really old really fast. Even now I do get annoyed sometimes and wish for some time to myself. All parents do. So why would someone who was so lazy as to park their kids in front of the tv set all day long forgo 7 hours a day of free public babysitting??

56

Would the world be better off if there were no Southern Baptists? Yes, absolutely. No question. Do I want all Southern Baptists to die? No. If I could ban the Southern Baptist Convention, would I? No.

Where have I advocated brainwashing? Requiring children of school age to be taught accepted principles of modern science is NOT brainwashing.

Certainly, but not under the auspices of education. If people want to pass on the bullshit that the world is 6,000 years old to their children, that’s find, and I’m very sorry that those children are going to be indoctrinated into that nonsense, but that’s life. However, the state has the right, and I would say responsibility, to ensure that those children, while of legal school age, are being taught the accepted principles of modern science, so as to prepare them for effective citizenship.

Any “hatred” I show fundamentalists is simply a reflection of the hatred they have shown me over the years. Particularly over the last eleven months.

What method of achieving that goal is that? Voting for Democrats and Libertarians?

Nope. Most of that is hyperbole. Overstating my case and position. It sounds a lot more serious than it actually is. But everyone here hates me anyway, so why the hell not play to how they expect me to be?

Aside from my former best friend (yes, a Southern Baptist), I’d be hard pressed to imagine myself physically harming anyone, were they not physically threatening me, my family, or my beagle.

Some people do turn into somewhat different people on anonymous message boards. I’ll admit that I’m, by this point, so bruised and scarred that I am on these boards far more reactionary (or radical, I suppose) than I am IRL. I don’t know that my best friends would recognize me all that well were they to come on this board and not recognize my screenname.

You can get a better feal for who I am from my real writings, like in my writings for the newspaper.

Conditionally Uncondition (column about Iraq) , Let Freedom Ring (Sept. 11 anniv.), Hail Apple, Full of Grace (religion & computers) and this one is stupid, but I had nothing I wanted to write about.

Kirk

57

IzzyR, I have taught in public high schools longer than I am willing to admit here. In all of those decades, not a single person has suggested that I should introduce the subject of homosexuality in my classroom.

And I am speculating that your antipathy to the equality of all people is not unconnected to religious fanaticism.

Before you jump to more conclusions, I am both a Christian (though not as tolerant of fundamentalists as I should be) and a heterosexual.[/my part of the hijack]

As for the OP on state inspection, who gets to decide what is appropiate parenting? IzzyR? Moi?

Which is more important – a spotless house or time playing with children? Is it all right for a parent to nurse her baby in the presence of her ten year old son? How many books and magazine subscriptions should each household be required to have? What if the government wants the caseworker to report any political books that are found in the house? Can you imagine the chaos and lawsuits?

I suspect that the OP was made out of concern for the welfare of children and it doesn’t hurt to barnstorm for ideas. But how can the concept of state intrusion even be considered??!!?

Quick! Somebody throw a bucket of cold water on me!

58

Wow, I’m sorry to hear that. As far as I’m concerned (being relatively new to this parenthood thing), and as I said above, whoever comes for my kid(s) had better come with a warrant and a stiffly armed escort. :wink: I’m a bit disgusted with the government’s idea that they need to parent all of us and (even worse) our children.

I already have a mother. I don’t need another one.

I guess in a lot of ways I lean heavily towards a Libertarian (the philosophy, not the guy) point of view. I think the government should do three things:

[list=1][li]Keep order (including meting Justice)[/li][li]Defend the shores and borders[/li][li]Pick up the trash.[/li][li]Nothing! There is no fourth thing![/list=1][/li]
Beyond that, they should stay the hell out of my business, and that includes the way I choose to raise my children. I have some major issues with the government as it stands, as you probably know if you’ve noticed many of my posts. :slight_smile:

59

reprise

IME you’re not quite correct in saying that homeschooling is even remotely mainstream in Australia. The vast majority of them are fundamentalist Christians (although a fair few in NSW are not). Where I live secular homeschoolers are virtually non-existent. The laws between states vary enormously. Q has repressive laws which virtually force a parent to use distance ed whether they want to or not. Q also brought in a truly fabulous piece of bureaucracy this year where when you apply for your dispensation, you’re supposed to find a school principal who will assert that you are a suitable parent and that the child can learn at home. Yeah, right I’m so sure that the principal who attempted to have me prosecuted in April of this year saw me as a fabulous candidate for home educating my kid.

In NZ homeschoolers are inspected every year or so. It’s stressful for the parents but not a BFD.

And to drag this OT – hell, NO!

60

Oh, I know, I was just being kind of sarcastic.
I teach Preschool part-time (4-year-olds), and it’s all we can do to get them to sit still for a 5-minute Circle Time. Believe me, I know! Keeping 21 four-year-olds entertained for three hours is no easy feat.
I didn’t mean to sound like an ass. I just thought even homeschoolers had to answer to someone, somewhere down the line.
If I homeschooled my kids, I would want to prove to someone in charge that I was actually teaching them, to be able to say, “See, I’m doing my job! Even though the house is kind of messy, my kids can read.”