cite?
Hitler didn’t put together a competent dictatorship either. He just annihilated all norms of governing, and ran on violence and plunder, which worked until it didn’t.
It would be the same with Trump 2. He’d hire even more maniacs than the first time around and outsource a lot of governing to big business. The stock market would boom, things would be grand for a few years, then a war or some kind of endogenous collapse.
Date sent: Fri, 12 Apr 2024 19:09:06 +0000
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government itself rebel against a second Trump presidency?
>
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> Buck_Godot Guest
> April 12
>
> Jim1:
> It COEs how Rick Scott won the Senate race in 2018 - as Governor he sent state
> police to destroy ballot boxes in Miami, authorized by the GOP legislature.
> cite?
>
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I don’t save records from 5 years ago. You want a citation? Look up the news reports from that time period.
They also found a car full of ballot boxes abandonned in Miami Airport - 3 weeks after Scott was declared the winner. A new Florida law enacted by the GOP legislature after the Bush-Gore “embarrassment” forbid counting those ballots, and they were also destroyed without counting.
Scott won by about 11,000 votes. A hundred thousand ballots from Miami-Dade (heavily Democrat) were never counted.
Jim
That’s not how a request for cites works.
Trump doesn’t work that way. He doesn’t trust anyone to have lieutenants like Goebbels, Himmler, et. al.
It’s the same every time. Apparently there are legions of people, right now completely anonymous, who have now learned everything they need to know about implementing everything Trump wants, and who will immediately sprint off and do it all while everyone else is encased in amber. Let’s stay in the realm of things we have seen before.
Hi Jim,
I see you are new here, welcome to the Dope. As part of our mission statement to fight ignorance (its taking longer than we thought) we are sticklers for making sure that any claims made are based in fact. So if someone makes a statement in the politics or Great Debate forums, it is understood that that person should be able to back up their claims. Since they are the ones who made the claim, and they know more of the details of what they are looking for. Also they should have the more motivation to produce a cite since they obviously want their claims to be accepted as fact. In general, telling someone to research a claim you made is viewed equivalently to asking someone to do your homework. Note that you shouldn’t take my request for a cite as my saying you are wrong or lying, just that I hadn’t heard this and would like more information about it.
Also if you want to quote someone, the best way to do that is to select the text in the post you want to quote then press on the "Quote pop-up that appears.
Thanks for dropping by and I hope you stick around. Reading your profile, it sounds like you have a lot of useful experience that would be of great interest to the board.
-Buck
I don’t care.
What really happened was that “Elections officials say boxes labeled with the words “provisional ballots” that have shown up around Broward County contain offices supplies used on Election Day and are not used to collect actual filled-out ballots. Broward supervisor of elections attorney Eugene Pettis says the boxes contain office supplies and a red envelope for polling places to use for any provisional ballots.”
Boxes Found in Broward Used for Office Supplies, Not Ballots: Officials – NBC 6 South Florida (nbcmiami.com)
No ballots were destroyed. Do you have any cites from people that were in a position to know what really went down?
Can’t find it. Please show me.
You got me curious, so I checked around a bit.
This 11/14/2018 Miami Herald link is the closest thing I can find that mentions state police involvement in the 2018 Scott-Nelson US Senate race. Unsure if paywalled – I was able to open it and read it without issue.
Florida’s highest-ranking government officials are increasing the pressure on state police to get involved in the counting of ballots in heavily Democratic South Florida as Gov. Rick Scott clings to a lead over Bill Nelson during a statewide recount of their nationally relevant U.S. Senate contest. Attorneys for Scott’s campaign filed emergency motions Sunday requesting that embattled elections supervisors in Palm Beach and Broward counties turn over custody of their vote-tabulation machines and ballots to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement and sheriff’s deputies during times when votes aren’t being counted. The motions come days after Scott claimed that “unethical liberals” in the two counties were trying to steal his election after late-developing returns narrowed his margins over Nelson and forced him into an ongoing statewide recount.
…
Democrats, who’ve accused Scott and Republican attorneys of voter suppression, reacted harshly. Mark Herron, an election lawyer who represented Al Gore in the 2000 presidential recount, called Scott’s push to involve state police an “abuse of power.” Joe Geller, a Miami state representative and election lawyer called it an “extraordinary” and unwarranted request, although courts in New York recently ordered ballots impounded in a congressional race at the request of Democratic frontrunner Anthony Brindisi.
…
“In suing to seize ballots and impound voting machines, Rick Scott is doing his best to impersonate Latin American dictators who have overthrown Democracies in Venezuela and Cuba,” said Florida Democratic Party Executive Director Juan Peñalosa in an emailed statement Sunday evening. “The governor is using his position to consolidate power by cutting at the very core of our democracy.”
“What really happened was that “Elections officials say boxes labeled with the words “provisional ballots” that have shown up around Broward County contain offices supplies used on Election Day and are not used to collect actual filled-out ballots”
Of course. That’s why they were packed into a nondescript vehicle, driven to Miami Airport, and parked - to be found by airport authorities weeks later. The ballot boxes were quickly destroyed to prevent anyone from counting the estimated 100,000+ ballots inside, but the Florida MVA didn’t care where the abandoned car came from and no one claimed it. It just disappeared.
You’re right. Now we know that all ballot boxes only contained office supplies because the local TV station said so. It was just some unknown election worker with a spare car who couldn’t find the trash bin who packed the car and parked it in the main lot at Miami airport…
I’ve given up debating Trumpsters. The events were well reported and well known to Florida voters at the time, who then fell into two groups: those who were outraged and those who deny anything they don’t want to hear.
Scott even wanted to arrest the Miami-Dade elections supervisor for counting votes. The new laws enacted by the GOP legislature were on his side: Ballot boxes not counted by the deadline were to be destroyed without counting. With much higher than normal turnout, the Miami-Dade voting district failed to meet the new deadline.
Trying to find a citation 5 years later is a futile effort. The deniers will still deny. If someone is REALLY interested, they can do the research. I’m 76, retired, and will be dead before these people accept any truth they don’t want to hear.
2 things:
- Hitler’s lieutenants weren’t masterminds, just marginally competent corrupt bureaucrats in the right place at the right time.
- Look at Steven Miller, Mike Flynn, etc. They fit the above mold. None of this requires masterminds.
The whole thing about “he made the trains run on time” is misguided. Nazis were outrageously incompetent. The scale of their deeds wasn’t due to some hyper-efficient competency, it was having a single purpose and monopolizing an entire state’s economy and capacity for violence toward it. Had they been competent, they’d have managed their economy better, they’d have made more realistic military movements, there might still be a Nazi state today. The US has a few institutional safeguards against this, but they’re starting to crack.
Point I’m making is that bureaucratic toadies like Himmer, Goebbels, and Putin were never destined for greatness and they’re not especially competent. When the whole enterprise is run like a pirate ship, some will get lucky and rise to the top, not because they were masterminds but they were in the right place at the right time.
Absolutely true. Hitler was the only ubermensch in that crowd, and as politically savvy as he was, he was a galactically horrible military strategist. The parallels with team Trump are frightening.
There are very few Trumpsters here. People here, however, are very leery of conspiracy theories, whether they are from the right or the left.
Asking for cites is a big part of the board culture, sometimes obnoxiously so. But in this case, I think it’s fair.
And welcome to da Dope!
Well said. Thank you for posting this.
Don’t really agree, some like Himmler and Heydrich really were evil masterminds, and some like Robert Ley were complete idiots. One weakness of Hitler is that he tended to be loyal to his party people and not fire incompetents.
One difference between Hitler and Trump, though, is that Hitler had a huge party apparatus and paramilitary forces (SA, SS) in place before he ever took power. So they had a substantial amount of time to practice what they’d be doing.
Bannon and Miller are pretty smart, though. Flynn seems like more of an idiot. If Trump had been a better leader, he could have done a lot more damage the first time than he did. He’s now had his practice time, however.
Hitler did pretty well as a military strategist until Barbarossa in 1941. That was the big gamble that didn’t pay off. (But I agree with you more than that, actually, since I think that Hitler could have basically quit after the Anschluss and kept the Nazis in power for a long time. WWII was more or less a big gamble and big mistake for Germany.)
…which takes an oath very much like the Army’s oath of enlistment except it adds a clause to support and defend the constitution of whichever state they are in plus its governor in addition to the US’s Constitution and President.
Fair point. It was cops, not army nor even guard.
Trump does not have the SA and SS, but he’s effectively hijacked the Republican party, and he has militias like the Proud Boys and Oathkeepers behind him. Moreover he does appear to have a robust legal apparatus to keep him mostly out of trouble, and it’s clear at this point that SCOTUS are partisans for him. Not a direct comparison to Hitler, but it would be a mistake to believe Trump doesn’t already have all those pieces at his disposal.
All of these men are people who are good at making others think they’re smart, like Hitler’s henchmen. Flynn is a Marine Corps 3-star general. He’s has spent his lifetime in the military institution and seems to have made it work for him. Not to say this is any kind of genius, but it’s plenty enough to bend the government apparatus to your will.
Bannon and Miller are dim bulbs as well. They seem clever by contrast with Trump, but they’re really not bright individuals. They’re just cruel little men who spend a lot of time scheming, and are able to attract others like themselves to the cause.
That’s really all fascism takes. You don’t need a bunch of spreadsheets about who goes to the camp or not, you just need a crowd of loyal bureaucratically competent hacks. Trump has it, just like Hitler did.
Practice what? What evidence is there that Trump ever practices anything?