In “Patriot Games,” (both movie and book) Jack Ryan is a CIA analyst who is knighted for saving the Prince of Wales from terrorists.
But doesn’t Article I, Section 9 of the U.S. Constitution clearly state (I’ve put the relevant text in italics):
As someone paid by the CIA, wouldn’t Ryan qualify as someone holding an office of “profit” and “trust”? Where, then, did he ever obtain Congressional approval for his Knighthood?
Clancy is still finishing up the novel with the storyline behind that very subject. Word is the novel is going to be 2,000 pages long.
Of course I’m kidding, though I wouldn’t put it past Clancy to do just that.
At the time, he isn’t a CIA analyst. He’s briefly been a consultant. He’s also briefly been a Lieutenant. As a result of the attack he eventually joins the CIA.
But this question is addressed in the book - I don’t have the book to hand so I can’t cite chapter and verse, but it’s near the start of the book where HMQ comes to see him in hospital.
But IMO Clancy should have stopped the Ryanverse after Executive Orders. Rainbow 6 was pretty dire and The Bear and The Dragon simply poor. I didn’t even bother with Red Rabbit.
I believe the prince or the PM or whoever told him he was being knighted (been a long time since I read it) told Jack how they were getting around that. Something about how as far as the US was concerned it was to be treated as just an honorary courtesy, but to te UK it most certainly was not.
I haven’t read the book, just seent he movie. (I’m only referring to plot points they have in common in the OP) So is this in the book, but not the movie? I don’t remember it from the film.
Here’s the relevant exchange out of the book. As the scene opens Jack has the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh visiting him in his hospital room. They have already had conversation, the and the Queen has informed him he will be invested as a knight of the Victorian Order, a recent development.
*"--in any event, you will henceforth be known as Sir John Ryan."*
*Again Jack thought that he must look rather funny with his mouth open.*
*"Your Majesty, American law---"*
*"We know," she interrupted smoothly. "The Prime Minister will be discussing this with you President later today. We believe that in view of the special nature of this case, and in the interest of Anglo-American relations, the matter will be settled amicably,"*
*"There is ample precendent for this," the Duke went on. "After the Second World War a number of American officers were accorded similar recognition. Your Fleet Admiral Nimitz, for example becam a Knight Commander of the Bath, along with Generals Eisenhower, Bradley, Patton, and a number of others.*
*"For the purposes of American law, it will probably be considered honorary---but for our purposes it will be quite real."*
*"Well, " Ryan fumble for something to say. "Your Majesty, insofar as this does not conflict with the laws of my country, I will be deeply honored to accept." The Queen beamed.*
There’s some more conversation and then
*"Excuse me, this knighthood, does it mean that my wife will be called--"*
*"Lady Ryan? Of course."*This thread calls for some hijackin’. (With my apologies to Liz’, of course.)
According to the OP’s constitutional excerpt it’s not impossible or illegal for a US employee or officeholder to obtain a title of nobility; it just requires congressional okay.
That raises the Q: has such permission ever been granted by congress in the long history of our republic?
If you read the message right before yours, Baker lists several people that have been created knights by British royalty.
Although none of them are called “Sir” anything. Still, never mind, it’s only a crappy novel that was made into a crappy film (IMHO). That dialogue is hilarious though.
Lok, I read that before I posted. But the dialogue implies (to me, at least) that there is “ample precedent” for sidestepping the congrssional requirements to bestow a royal title. At best, the details af what the hell they’re talking about doing, or not doing, to get the matter “settled amicably” are ambiguous.
So, did all those WW2 generals get the congressional green light, or not? Or is it all a bunch of hogwash as everton implies it may be?
I didn’t mean to imply that US citizens never receive knighthoods, only that if they do they are honorary ones, so they don’t get to be called “Sir” and their wives don’t get to be called “Lady”.
Obstacles to certain categories of US citizens receiving honours from foreign countries may very well be removed only with Congressional approval, but recipients of honorary knighthoods have included Rudolph Giuliani, Ronald Reagan, Casper Weinberger, George Bush Sr, Norman Schwartzkopf and Colin Powell as well as Steven Spielberg, Billy Graham, André Previn and others. There are plenty more who have received British honours lower than knighthoods. John Paul Getty II and Bob Hope are other examples, but Getty became a British citizen in the 1980s (so was Sir John) and Hope was born here.
As I understood the passage from the book, the UK prime minister was going to raise the issue with the US President, who would then arrange to get appropriate Congressional approval. I imagine that on a small matter like this, Congress would quickly and without contraversy grant approval.
I know that a lot of the US commanders in the first Gulf War (Powell, Schwartzkopf, etc.) were awarded British knighthoods. I assume that they got Congressional approval.
Back when Norman Schwartzkopf was knighted, I read in the paper that only knights who are British citizens get to be addressed as “Sir.” So altho Stormin’ Norman is a Knight of Whatever, he isn’t called “Sir Norman.”
What exactly is the difference between an honorary knighthood and a real one? Does the real one have any obligations or privileges besides being called “Sir” or “Lady”?
None. It might get you a better table in a restaurant, or a “better class” of invitation to social events perhaps, but that’s all.
Diceman: That came up in another thread, and it turned out that you don’t have to be a British or Commonwealth citizen, but all the exceptions quoted were members of European royal families who already had titles of their own that would outrank knighthoods anyway.
I thought it unusual enough that some American military people were decorated by other countries. Case in point: Captain Eddie Rickenbacker, decorated enough by the American military after World War I, also received the Legion d’Honneur, presumably from France. Oh, well, they were allies of ours in WWI…
As I understand it, each and every single American soldier who served in Vietnam was decorated by the Vietnamese government (the one we were supporting, of course, not the communists). So it’s not exactly uncommon.
Could the Queen and Duke also have conferred British citizenship on Ryan?
(Yes, yes, I know that Americans technically cannot obtain citizenship in other countries and remain American citizens. Disregard that for now.)
Could the Queen, for example, have said, “we’re making you a citizen of the UK, and then knighting you, so you may be called Sir John.”
But then he couldn’t shove his political beliefs down our throats through his fictional counterpart. By Executive Orders it was clear that Ryan = Clancy (at least in his fervent dreams).
The irony is that his best book- Red Storm Rising had nothing to do with his hokey fantasy universe of the later books. I read somewhere that he somehow got full editorial control of the books right around when they started to suck so bad- anyone have the full deal on that?
Thanks!
This thread contained claims that an American doesn’t need to renounce his/her US citizenship to take up British (or any other foreign) citizenship.
British citizenship cannot be conferred on any person at the Queen’s personal whim, it is controlled by The British Nationality Act 1981. Citizenship by naturalisation would have required that Ryan (in this example) would have intended to have his main home in the UK and live here for a period of five continuous years beginning from his citizenship application (apart from brief periods of overseas travel). There are lots of other qualifications to pass, but they wouldn’t have given him any problems.
If he had jumped through all the necessary hoops he’d have got the full title the way John Getty did.